Topic 'Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed' in forum 'HughesNet Satellite'

Topic 'Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed' in forum 'HughesNet Satellite' - dslreports.com http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18209627 en Sat, 26 Mar 2022 14:07:44 EDT Sat, 26 Mar 2022 14:07:44 EDT Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18231038 said by bcosell:

Is there some way to keep track of what's happening? Good question. There are programs such as Gatekeeper, and FAPMon. I've never felt the need for one and still don't, so I'm not a good one to answer questions about how well they work. Hopefully some of their users will pop in and let you know what their results are.
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W2K Server |HughesNet IA8/1410/7000 2-watt Business Internet on .98 meter fixed | Datastorm .98 XF2 2-watt]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18231038 Wed, 25 Apr 2007 11:11:22 EDT Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18230293 said by dbirdman:

The point of all of the testing done over the past week is that we knew the old FAP wording did not match reality, and we correctly assumed the new FAP wording does not match reality, so we tested to find what the reality was. You will never pin down Hughes on this unless you want to spend a lot of money suing them (the original beginnings of understanding the old FAP came from discovery during the late-90s FAP lawsuit, never from something Hughes posted)Thanks for the explanation. Seems all very odd and I'm not sure I understand it quite [and your "you can test it yourself" is a bit too risky for me: I really need my internet connection and 24hrs of essentialy-zero-bandwidth is not something I'm willing to endure again [and so thanks to you more-bold-than-I-am folk for doing the testing :)], but I think the light is starting to dawn [and I now see/understand why there was all of this testing probing of the FAP: the disconnect between the plain wording of the FAP and its actual implementation]

Just remember that anything you use above the download is coming out of your 200MB that I will rename "reserve" and if you bottom it out you will FAP. That would be true even across multiple days - set a download manager close to the refresh rate indefinitely, then use another 50MB today, tomorrow, the next day, and the day after that you will FAP out.

Is there some way to keep track of what's happening? I do a lot of other things besides FTP/HTTP downloads [which GetRight will do just fine for a limited-speed download] (such things as Zmodem stuff over my SSL connection, tons of email, occasional streaming videos and such, not to mention a too-large dose of usenet.. :)]. For example, if I actually use my connection for 100megs in a day [which I do moderately regularly], how would I then "tune" GetRight so it could be downloading away and not get me FAPed.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18230293 Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:38:48 EDT Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18230061
First off on Wildblue, the tools the use to measure it are completely inaccurate - you can download 5 gigs and 1 gig will be listed, or you can download 1 gig and 5 gigs will be listed... this happens to everyone at some point, and nobody can figure out why.

Second, once you go over your limit on Wildblue you're reduced to dial-up speeds for at LEAST a week if your usage is fairly spread out. Wildblue works on a "rolling 30 day" system, once you hit the FAP limit your usage has to be reduced to 80% of your policy. Guess what that means if you decided to download 6 gigs of stuff in a couple days on the 7 day plan? You're stuck at 56k speeds for about a month.

Third, if you hit FAP more than 3 times on Wildblue you're booted off the system and you cannot sign up again for 18 months.

Believe me, Wildblue is absolutely horrible when it comes to the FAP. HughesNet, while not good (expecially not the latest changes), is in a whole different league. Just use a download manager and throttle your speeds if you need big downloads.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18230061 Wed, 25 Apr 2007 07:11:37 EDT Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18227982 said by dbirdman:

Just want to note that the url is .org, not .com; perhaps you could edit it?
Corrected. Tnx.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18227982 Tue, 24 Apr 2007 20:14:12 EDT Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18227743 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18227743 Tue, 24 Apr 2007 19:24:32 EDT Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18227152 said by dbirdman:

There's no reason to take my word for it, and there's definitely no reason to take Hughes' word for it - the ability to actually find out lies in your own system. Just remember that anything you use above the download is coming out of your 200MB that I will rename "reserve" and if you bottom it out you will FAP. That would be true even across multiple days - set a download manager close to the refresh rate indefinitely, then use another 50MB today, tomorrow, the next day, and the day after that you will FAP out.
I think I finally got it. Thanks Birdman. What really made it real for me was downloading freedownloadmanager at »www.freedownloadmanager.org I throttled back a 17MB download to 5KB, and it took about an hour to download. I could also immediately see the advantages: let's say there were 108MB worth of podcasts I wanted to download. I could set the download manager to download them overnight at 5KB and I wouldn't be depleting my "reserve". I would wake up in the morning with the files downloaded ready to listen to. Of course, my "reserve" would continue to be exactly where it was when I started the 5KB download process.

Mine may not be a great example, but just wanted you to know that your posts were quite helpful. And thanks for the link to the download manager.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18227152 Tue, 24 Apr 2007 17:29:48 EDT Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18226082 said by bcosell:

first, are you telling me that I can "download continuously" so as to get 500Mb/day and not hit the FAP limit?Yep, but it has to be very careful if you are going to push that close to the limit. No way to do it except automated.

That's seem to be contrary to the explicit wording of the FAP.

The point of all of the testing done over the past week is that we knew the old FAP wording did not match reality, and we correctly assumed the new FAP wording does not match reality, so we tested to find what the reality was. You will never pin down Hughes on this unless you want to spend a lot of money suing them (the original beginnings of understanding the old FAP came from discovery during the late-90s FAP lawsuit, never from something Hughes posted).

where is this 'refresh rate' that you claim I'm guaranteed spelled out.

Nowhere, and I have not claimed "guaranteed." On the old FAP it was spelled out, but now it is not, and the presumption of the difference is that the old FAP recovery continued after you hit FAP, and now recovery ends when you hit FAP. Hughes severely dummies down all such explanations, and that is just too much for them to get into. Here we actually work to find out how it works, not relying on vague wording.

I just checked the plans and the FAPs again and see no mention of any such guaranteed rate.

That's correct. You are not guaranteed 200MB, either, anymore than you are guaranteed any speed. They pay lawyers a lot to make sure there is nothing you can go after them for.

I vaguely recall something about refresh in the old 4-hr FAP policy

And I repeat that there NEVER was a 4-hour policy, just an incorrect and misleading 4-hour statement.

You can jump ship based on your assumptions, or you can very easily test for yourself: Pick a big file and set a download manager at 5KBps (note upper case B, for Byte) and use your connection only moderately for everything else for 24 hours. Watch how much actually gets downloaded, as well as whether you are in FAP at 200MB. There's no reason to take my word for it, and there's definitely no reason to take Hughes' word for it - the ability to actually find out lies in your own system. Just remember that anything you use above the download is coming out of your 200MB that I will rename "reserve" and if you bottom it out you will FAP. That would be true even across multiple days - set a download manager close to the refresh rate indefinitely, then use another 50MB today, tomorrow, the next day, and the day after that you will FAP out.
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W2K Server |HughesNet IA8/1410/7000 2-watt Business Internet on .98 meter fixed | Datastorm .98 XF2 2-watt]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18226082 Tue, 24 Apr 2007 13:43:11 EDT Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18225950 said by dbirdman:

It appears you haven't been following the FAP discussions very well, and didn't understand the old FAP either.I never really fully understood it -- too many vague terms for a systems analyst like me to make much sense of. :)

The current FAP statement from Hughes uses "day" loosely and incorrectly, just like they loosely and incorrectly used to use "4 hours."

I'm a bit confused. When they say

Hughes assigns a download threshold to each service plan that limits the amount of data that may be downloaded during a typical day

you're telling me that "day" doesn't mean "day"? What does it mean? How long is a "typical day"???

In terms of the throughput really available over the course of a period of time, the FAP number is less important than the refresh rate. If there is no other usage, you can move traffic at the refresh rate indefinitely. 4 hours, 24 hours, 48 hours, or a month. The refresh rate with a Home account is 50Kbps, just over 6KBps. That works out to a limit of 540MB per day.

Two things: first, are you telling me that I can "download continuously" so as to get 500Mb/day and not hit the FAP limit? That's seem to be contrary to the explicit wording of the FAP. [unless 500 megs downloaded *every* 24-hour day is actually less than 200 megs downloaded on a "typical" day in FAP-speak] I mention "continuously" because the specs for the Home plan say:

Download Threshold is the volume of data that can be downloaded continuously before the Fair Access Policy may restrict the download speed.

And second, where is this 'refresh rate' that you claim I'm guaranteed spelled out. I just checked the plans and the FAPs again and see no mention of any such guaranteed rate. I vaguely recall something about refresh in the old 4-hr FAP policy but I couldn't find any mention of any such thing in the new policy: just a pretty clear "you're screwed for a full 24 hrs", to wit:

Subscribers who exceed that threshold will experience reduced download speeds for approximately 24 hours.

So help me understand this: where does "200megs" and "day" figure into your reckoning of HN's actual FAP policy? If I get FAPed, on what basis can I make a complaint if what I was doing [e.g., the 500meg/day download] clearly violated the letter of the FAP but not your assertions about its interpretation?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18225950 Tue, 24 Apr 2007 13:13:56 EDT Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18225466 said by bcosell:

you have 200megs/day...
I am finding a hard time coming up with a scenario where HN's FAP policy ends up being better/nicer for me than WB's is.
That's true. When you start with incorrect numbers (you have 200megs/day), you are bound to come to incorrect conclusions.

It appears you haven't been following the FAP discussions very well, and didn't understand the old FAP either.

The current FAP statement from Hughes uses "day" loosely and incorrectly, just like they loosely and incorrectly used to use "4 hours."

Neither have any meaning in the context of the actual bucket algorithm still in use (so long as FAP is not exceeded). In terms of the throughput really available over the course of a period of time, the FAP number is less important than the refresh rate. If there is no other usage, you can move traffic at the refresh rate indefinitely. 4 hours, 24 hours, 48 hours, or a month. The refresh rate with a Home account is 50Kbps, just over 6KBps. That works out to a limit of 540MB per day.

Most of the time that is simply a theoretical limit, since usage is peaks and valleys, but with a download manager you can indeed control the flow such that nearly all of the theoretical volume is available.

Note that, for Hughes, it appears that an MB is 1,000,000 bytes rather than file-standard 1024x1024, so 540MB of throughput would net you 515MB of file.
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W2K Server |HughesNet IA8/1410/7000 2-watt Business Internet on .98 meter fixed | Datastorm .98 XF2 2-watt]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18225466 Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:36:21 EDT Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18225303 said by Mokey2000:

said by bcosell:

Just so, but if they or you screw up, with the WB scheme you actually recover. With the HN scheme you're just totally hosed for a full 24 hrs

With WB it might be weeks later.
Let's try to be a bit careful about things like that. First thing is that if you don't hit the FAP then HN and WB are essentially identical: you have 200megs/day. The only difference, operationally, is that WB will *allow* you to get more than 200megs in a single day [which would then mean, of course, that you'd have to use less in subsequent days (or, you could have 'banked" the extra capacity from previous days)], whereas with HN if you try to get more than 200megs you'll be summarily tanked for a full 24hrs.

So if you're careless and you try to download, say, a 205 meg file at top speed [which, let's say, is about 50KB/second] on WB you'll download the entire file in about an hour and you'll have to deal with about 5 megs of overage that you'd have to deal with. With HN, you'd get 200 megs of the file, your connection would be crowbarred for 24 hrs and then you'd be able to grab the last 5 megs the next day.

I confess that since I've been thinking about this [basically, in the wake of my getting screwed by HN's new FAP policy over last weekend], I am finding a hard time coming up with a scenario where HN's FAP policy ends up being better/nicer for me than WB's is.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18225303 Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:07:45 EDT Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18224667 said by dbirdman:

said by bcosell:

I tried that once, long ago, and got very bad results but that was because I didn't do the arithmetic properly. I set my download limit at a princely 33.6. For us bottom feeders, the actual FAP speed limit is about 2.3Kb [someplace in between the speed of a 14.4 modem and a 28.8 modem!] and so to be able to get anything else done I guess I'd have to try a speed limit of, maybe 2Kb. So for me [if my faulty arithmetic is correct] it'd take me something like 20 days to pull down that DVD.

You are correct, you have arithmetic errors. The Home recovery rate is 50Kbps, or 6KBps.Hmm.. That doesn't match my calculations, which I just rechecked. The Home plan is 200megs/day. 200megs/day works out to about 2.3Kb/sec. If I tried to download at 6KB, I'd hit 200megs in a bit less that 10hrs and be dead in the water.

but if they or you screw up, with the WB scheme you actually recover.

How do you figure that? There's no recovery in the WB scheme - you stay FAPped until your 30-day average drops to 80% of the FAP - not just below FAP, but 20% below.

Of course there's recovery: if you, say, take your usage to zero, the monthly average will begin to come down, and when it comes down enough you'll be back on the air. Yes, that can be a long time or a short time depending on how badly you trounced the FAP limit, but it still recovers. With HN you're dead for a solid 24 hrs, regardless of whether you went over the FAP quickly or slowly (pulling 700megs to blast the FAP or 6Kb to creep past it)

We're using "recovery" for two different things, I think: it seems that the 'power users', who always play around staying right up around the FAP limit trying to squeeze out every byte of download, use 'recovery' to mean how quickly they get more capacity that they can then snatch up. I use it, as a lower-level-user, as the rate at which I come out of FAP if I happen to wander/blunder into it.

As for the 80%, I had done all of my comparisions assuming that the 80% level was the WB FAP limit, and the extra was basically a grace period so that you had a chance to fix things before you got nailed. Interestingly, the 80%WB monthl limit and the current HN daily limit work out to be almost exactly the same :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18224667 Tue, 24 Apr 2007 08:58:52 EDT Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18222215 said by bcosell:

I tried that once, long ago, and got very bad results but that was because I didn't do the arithmetic properly. I set my download limit at a princely 33.6. For us bottom feeders, the actual FAP speed limit is about 2.3Kb [someplace in between the speed of a 14.4 modem and a 28.8 modem!] and so to be able to get anything else done I guess I'd have to try a speed limit of, maybe 2Kb. So for me [if my faulty arithmetic is correct] it'd take me something like 20 days to pull down that DVD. You are correct, you have arithmetic errors. The Home recovery rate is 50Kbps, or 6KBps. If you set a download at that rate, you will get the 700MB in 32 hours. If you run into FAP it would be because you did over 200MB of other stuff in those 32 hours, because there is nothing available recovery-wise. It would have taken you similar amounts of time with the old FAP, except you would have been doing it in large chunks with periods of wait in-between.

but if they or you screw up, with the WB scheme you actually recover.

How do you figure that? There's no recovery in the WB scheme - you stay FAPped until your 30-day average drops to 80% of the FAP - not just below FAP, but 20% below.
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W2K Server |HughesNet IA8/1410/7000 2-watt Business Internet on .98 meter fixed | Datastorm .98 XF2 2-watt]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18222215 Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:38:32 EDT Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18222144 said by bcosell:

Just so, but if they or you screw up, with the WB scheme you actually recover. With the HN scheme you're just totally hosed for a full 24 hrsWith WB it might be weeks later.
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Hybrid System, DW3000 Modem, AOL+ Grey Dish, SatMex5 1250, 4.2.1.10, Win98se]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18222144 Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:27:26 EDT Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18222034 said by dbirdman:

said by bcosell:

Consider, for example, if you wanted to download a 700meg ISO image. There is, in essence, no way to do that with HN.

Not true. Read my post on testing the new FAP. Using a free download manager you can have that 700MB in a couple of days with no impact on your other usage, and you will be full bucket in no time.
You're right. I tried that once, long ago, and got very bad results but that was because I didn't do the arithmetic properly. I set my download limit at a princely 33.6. For us bottom feeders, the actual FAP speed limit is about 2.3Kb [someplace in between the speed of a 14.4 modem and a 28.8 modem!] and so to be able to get anything else done I guess I'd have to try a speed limit of, maybe 2Kb. So for me [if my faulty arithmetic is correct] it'd take me something like 20 days to pull down that DVD. But I agree it would be doable!

1) No recovery rate. It appears from all reports, that if you blunder into the FAP you are nailed for 24hrs.

Only partially true. The recovery rate remains, so long as you don't hit FAP. That's why a throttled download works.

Just so, but if they or you screw up, with the WB scheme you actually recover. With the HN scheme you're just totally hosed for a full 24 hrs. Your observation would apply to the "poweruser" trying to stay pretty close to the limit [and so carefully tracking how your 'bucket' is recovering to avoid your getting FAPed]; my observation had to do with what happens if you (or they!!) slip up and you get FAPed.

I still think WB's scheme is fairer and will be easier to live with -- not the least because you can get the 'banking' effect for free, rather than need to use a download mgr. For example, if you're pulling down something from usenet, my download mgr won't act as an NNTP proxy [maybe there are some out there that will]... ditto for doing email or anything else except FTP and HTTP (actually, the download mgr I use [GetRight] will do bittorrent, also). Clearly each of our MMV on how we view this...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18222034 Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:11:37 EDT Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18221817 said by bcosell:

Consider, for example, if you wanted to download a 700meg ISO image. There is, in essence, no way to do that with HN.Not true. Read my post on testing the new FAP. Using a free download manager you can have that 700MB in a couple of days with no impact on your other usage, and you will be full bucket in no time.

1) No recovery rate. It appears from all reports, that if you blunder into the FAP you are nailed for 24hrs.

Only partially true. The recovery rate remains, so long as you don't hit FAP. That's why a throttled download works.
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W2K Server |HughesNet IA8/1410/7000 2-watt Business Internet on .98 meter fixed | Datastorm .98 XF2 2-watt]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18221817 Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:32:18 EDT Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18221645 said by Arion7:

...The thing about WB is that unless it has changed if you Fap on that platform your screwed for 30 days and not 24 hours.
I hear you: that's, in fact, a primary reason why I didn't jump over to WB a few years back. But now that I've thought about it some, I've gotten convinced that having the FAP be a 30-day window is better than having it be strict 24hrs.

Consider, for example, if you wanted to download a 700meg ISO image. There is, in essence, no way to do that with HN. But with WB, that would just use up three days of capacity on your sliding window and you would be able to have "banked" that by laying off your connection for a few days around the download. So I'm not so sure it is even clear that having the FAP be day-by-day is a good thing at all: it sounds to me that being able to average-over-a-month would give you a lot more flexibility than a draconain 24-hr limit. In essence, by allowing you a 30-day sliding window WB allows you to "bank" unusued download capacity... which strikes me as a nice thing [e.g., I needed to go into work to download the latest Ubuntu release, since I can't figure out a way to do that with HN].

In addition to my view that the WB's policy [of a 30-day window] is better for us users than the strict-24 of HN, there are a few other warts in HN's FAP that add to its ugliness:

1) No recovery rate. It appears from all reports, that if you blunder into the FAP you are nailed for 24hrs. It *used* to be the case that there is a recovery rate and so you would gradually get out of FAPness as you were keeping your bandwidth usage down. The thing is if you're a fairly modest user [as I am, pretty much], then being "close to the FAP" isn't a real problem, since it is recovering by itself. But with the new HN FAP policy you're locked-down, no questions, no recourse, for 24 hrs -- even if you go only a little over the FAP limit, you're done-in for 24hrs.

2) Too low a speed cap. HN's FAP speed cap used to be around 60K. WB's FAP cap is 125K. (my rough way of describing that to friends is that HN's used to be about the speed of a single-channel ISDN and WB's was dual-channel). But HN's current speed cap appears to be someplace around 9600 baud. On today's internet, 9600 baud is pretty much "zero", and so the practical effect of HN's new FAP policy is, in essence, to turn off your account for the required 24hrs. [while I was fighting with my FAP screwup about the only thing I could do was IM; it took something like 12 minutes (!!) to surf to the HN website]

[BTW: in case you've never done the calculation, the actual bandwidth capacity for both WB and HN for continuous use of the baby-est account is roughly the speed of a 28.8 modem. So in the large, that's the "recovery rate" [at least for WB: HN seems not to have a recovery rate] -- that is, your monthly average allowance will be increasing at the pace of a 28.8 modem running 24/7, up to a "full tank" of 6 gigs.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18221645 Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:02:01 EDT Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18218566 then re commission the unit.
fap gone.
they know this.

I HATE LIARS.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18218566 Mon, 23 Apr 2007 06:51:34 EDT Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18217531 some days I need more most days I use way less
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| R16 1250 99 W | HN7000S | Vista|XP Pro]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18217531 Sun, 22 Apr 2007 22:19:29 EDT Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18217427 said by Arion7:

Sure...I understand. The thing about WB is that unless it has changed if you Fap on that platform your screwed for 30 days and not 24 hours. Although they may have fixed it last fall I was reading that a bad software update left many systems crawling, ping times thru the roof and worse of all a lot of MB being added to the system Fap even when the modem was disconnected!! And although they don't use foreign support I've read that their "technical support" isn't a whole lot better than Hughes. I researched WB before going HN. The way I understand their FAP is that it's based on a rolling 30 day period - their middle plan permits 12 gig down and 3 gig up during this period. If you go over 80% of the FAP, you get a warning email, if you exceed the FAP, you're slowed way down until your 30 day rolling average falls back below the 80% level, then you're back to full speed. How long this takes depends on how quickly you went from 80 to 100% - it would certainly be less than 30 days though.
I'd actually prefer this scheme, because in a way I could bank bandwidth from my low usage days.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18217427 Sun, 22 Apr 2007 21:58:08 EDT Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18217281 said by Arion7:

And although they don't use foreign support I've read that their "technical support" isn't a whole lot better than Hughes.
You can understand them when they tell you you're screwed... :o]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18217281 Sun, 22 Apr 2007 21:33:28 EDT Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18216871 30 days and not 24 hours. Although they may have fixed it last fall I was reading that a bad software update left many systems crawling, ping times thru the roof and worse of all a lot of MB being added to the system Fap even when the modem was disconnected!! And although they don't use foreign support I've read that their "technical support" isn't a whole lot better than Hughes.
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HN7000S IA-8 1270 / 256 4/5 rate / Router:67.142.140.95 /.74 1 watt / Pro Pack / Pentium 3.2ghz, 1gb ram / WinXP Pro/ Firefox 2.0.0.3]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18216871 Sun, 22 Apr 2007 19:59:35 EDT Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18216720 said by Arion7:

Before you jump....go to a couple of the wild blue forums and read there complaints lately. No matter what service you use their are problems for some unfortunate people. That's true. But note that I'm not complaining about a transitory problem or the like, but a policy that looks like it too repulsive for me to tolerate. It would be one thing if the customer service was bad or my sat-connection got screwed up, but that's not the case here: unless they make significant changes to it [which I doubt], the new FAP policy is designed to piss off customers and be offensive and draconian.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18216720 Sun, 22 Apr 2007 19:17:50 EDT Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18214739 said by bcosell:

Well, I think that this is going to push me to WildBlue. There are three aspects of this mess that have really soured me on HN:Before you jump....go to a couple of the wild blue forums and read there complaints lately. No matter what service you use their are problems for some unfortunate people. A lot of Hughes people get angry and go to WB and WB people get angry and go to Hughes and it seems that all that is accomplished is the customer is paying a lot of money for ???
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HN7000S IA-8 1270 / 256 4/5 rate / Router:67.142.140.95 /.74 1 watt / Pro Pack / Pentium 3.2ghz, 1gb ram / WinXP Pro/ Firefox 2.0.0.3]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18214739 Sun, 22 Apr 2007 11:03:52 EDT Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18214595
I pull 2-3kbps when I'm being FAPed.

Screw you, Hughesnet. Dialup is faster and more reliable.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18214595 Sun, 22 Apr 2007 10:20:25 EDT Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18214466
1) that *no*one* in the support chain of command can fix an erroneously applied FAP. The FAP stuff is draconian and _does_ make mistakes [as it did with me] and we all know that it is not all that difficult [from a technical sense] to fix it.

2) There's no "recovery" any more apparently: if you get FAPed, you're sunk for 24 hrs. With the old FAP, as you didn't use your connection your available-speed slowly crept back up.

3) the FAP speed cap appears to be somewhere around 9600 baud. The old FAP limit was 56K and WildBlue's is 128K

The sum total of the above is that if there is an error [or if, horrors, you actually run into the FAP [as I did once years ago: reloaded XP onto my wife's laptop and I was trying to download all the patches and service packs]] your "punishment" is 24hrs with no sat service [I know: a quibble but as I've learned, on today's internet 9600 is not much different than zero.

Too bad -- I'd had many years of good reliable service with Direcway later Hughesnet, but I just can't tolerate a service that could throw me off for a full day for any or no reason and not be willing/able to fix it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18214466 Sun, 22 Apr 2007 09:40:45 EDT Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18213044 said by Old customer :

I hope a lot of people will be leaving with me to enforce the idea that when you screw with your customers you get it in return.

Are you asking for several new neighbor :p

Myself, I will be happy to stay here on my 120 acres in the middle of nowhere and suffer through it!!
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Team Discovery
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HN7000S Small Office,IA6/1216,.98,2 watt]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18213044 Sat, 21 Apr 2007 22:31:20 EDT Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18210558 said by bcosell:

if you happen to run afoul of the new FAP stuff it seems that you get crowbarred down to something like the speed of a 14.4 dialup modem.
I posted in a different thread about lousy customer service and a bunch of apologies with no action. Sickening. There's just no winning. By the way I was subjected to FAP a couple nights ago. I'm not much of a downloader but wanted to update windows, adobe, etc and shame on me I went over by a few MB's. Was under siege for 24 hours exactly. FAP says service will be reduced, not come to an unfair screeching halt. I would have been happy to have to have had even 14.4 you spoke of....I'm still bound by contract with hughes or I would have bailed. Can't wait till I can. Companies must do better by the customers they need for survival.

April 20th, 01:37AM - 14/534 kbps
April 20th, 12:26AM - 13/117 kbps
April 19th, 11:58PM - 12/502 kbps
April 19th, 08:40PM - 5/146 kbps
April 19th, 07:47PM - 3/104 kbps

Started at 3:00 AM on the 19th. Lasted 3:00 AM the 20th. 24 hours exactly]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18210558 Sat, 21 Apr 2007 12:38:48 EDT Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18210461
I agreed to the old FAP when I signed up and when I screwed up I paid for it. It wasn't often and was commonly over night when people would not be on.

They had an agreement with me and a way to enforce it. Fine. This new system is draconian, at best.

I hope a lot of people will be leaving with me to enforce the idea that when you screw with your customers you get it in return.

Best to all.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18210461 Sat, 21 Apr 2007 12:08:34 EDT Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18210391
Planning a move in the next year and will choose a place sufficiently remote, but with another form of broadband.

What Hughes has done is unforgivable.

I find this with more and more companies.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18210391 Sat, 21 Apr 2007 11:53:41 EDT Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18210013
Speed Test Result

694 / 100

Something like ten minutes after I got off the phone with the tier-3 support person who said that it'd be until Monday before someone could try to fix my account..... it magically got fixed. I have absolutely no idea what is going on: if network-operations just got my account fixed coincidentally with my call, or if the tier-3 supervisor I was talking to actually found someone to fix something.

Strange stuff... and there's still the nagging problem that if you happen to run afoul of the new FAP stuff it seems that you get crowbarred down to something like the speed of a 14.4 dialup modem. [unless that, too, was some brokenness... since I don't [never have] run into the FAP, maybe I'll be lucky and never find out...:)]]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18210013 Sat, 21 Apr 2007 10:10:11 EDT Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18209833
As a followup -- I eventutally got through to tier-3 tech support [which, unlike previously, is someone who speaks unaccented fluent english and the phone line is clear -- I'm guessing that I was "outsourced" and now I was talking to a stateside tech support person]. Anyhow, this is even more irritating: there is, apparently, some problem that tier-3 tech support can't deal with. They can/will/have bump me up to tier-4 tech support, but he tells me those folk don't work on weekends, so it will be Monday morning, another 48 hrs, before anyone even looks at my problem. What makes it even more infuriating is that my complaint was properly upleveled at about 2PM on Friday, but whoever was on duty then didn't do anything about it -- of course, the tier-4 folk would have been there at 2PM friday, and so since whoeveritwas didn't bother to deal with my problem then, I am now screwed with [at least] 60-odd hours of additional non-service.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18209833 Sat, 21 Apr 2007 09:25:33 EDT Re: [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18209662 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18209662 Sat, 21 Apr 2007 08:27:54 EDT [DW7000] Getting an incorrect FAP fixed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18209627
I was incorrectly put on FAP. *every* person at Hughesnet (two supervisors and four level-1 tech support folk) have looked at my account and agreed that there is no reason why I should have been FAPed [in fact, I've never even run into the _old_ FAP limit, much less the new 200meg limit].

To add insult to injury, my satellite connection is current running at 1200 baud [just to make clear: that's the speed of a 30yr old Hayes dialup modem].

I call techsupport and the first stage is a half hour of them patiently explaining about how I'm a social criminal, using more than my share, and being appropriately "punished". Eventually they actually look at my account usage and realize that the FAP was in error... and then nothing: no one can actually do anything to rectify the problem... their only counsel: just wait and the FAP will fix itself [just as if I actually *was* overusing my account].

I just got through to level-2 support and they also patiently explained to me that I was basically a social criminal and after another go-round they said that *no*one* at Hughesnet can fix this problem. [Last recommendation was that I write a @#$%@#$% *lettter* to Hughesnet about the problem]. Is there *ANY* way to get this problem dealt with????]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/DW7000-Getting-an-incorrect-FAP-fixed-18209627 Sat, 21 Apr 2007 08:14:06 EDT