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jhhyde
join:2006-12-22
Dobbs Ferry, NY

jhhyde

Member

Routing Bonjour - How to?

Hello,

I'm looking to route Bonjour (port 5353) across two sub nets. I have for sake of argument network 1 and network 2. I have a specialized RIP server (xserve 10.4) for printing. What I'd like to do is allow for users of both the 1 and 2 networks to browse via Bonjour the printers that reside in network 2. Essentially the people in Network 1 need to be able to see those printers which are served from this RIP software. The software generates it's own printer "mounts" using Bonjour as its broadcast method.

We used to use AppleTalk for this, and we used a cisco router to manage that AppleTalk traffic, but soon that internal router will be removed.

Here's where I've read Bonjour gets tricky;
1) Bonjour is multi-cast, can multi-cast be routed?
2) How do you tell OS X to route this traffic across two interfaces, or is one interface better? Should I trust the underpinnings of OS X and create sub-interfaces via the *nix back end?
3) Bonjour talks on the IP range 224.0.0.251 which is apparently not a routable range of addresses. (I fundamentally don't understand why, so I'm off to read about it somewhere else to understand that part of this problem.)

I know this is a fairly unique question, but any and all searches on the web start at about 2003 and all I see are continued "pings" every year from others interested in doing the same.

Thanks for any input, and ask away for further details on the problem, I may have missed some details in my description.
aryoba
MVM
join:2002-08-22

aryoba

MVM

1. Multicast traffic can be routed when you use proper network gears
2. I'm not sure if or how OS X multiple interfaces are needed. Assuming the Cisco router is used to interconnect the two networks, then the OS X should only need one interface to connect to each network
3. The 224.0.0.251 is Multicast IP address and yes it is routable

To provide more info, please post the following

* Entire network topology including the IP addresses and subnet masks
* The network gears used (i.e. switches and routers)
* Does Bonjour support PIM Dense and/or Sparse mode?

Da Geek Kid
join:2003-10-11
::1

Da Geek Kid to jhhyde

Member

to jhhyde
Range 224.0.0.0 through 224.0.0.255 is reserved for local purposes and datagrams destined to them are never forwarded by multicast routers...
aryoba
MVM
join:2002-08-22

1 edit

aryoba

MVM

said by Da Geek Kid :
Range 224.0.0.0 through 224.0.0.255 is reserved for local purposes and datagrams destined to them are never forwarded by multicast routers...

You can actually do "unicast" route 224.0.0.0/24 multicast subnet. This is to support network topology that has multicast hosts spanned across the network.

Da Geek Kid
join:2003-10-11
::1

1 edit

Da Geek Kid to jhhyde

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to jhhyde
explain how you can use bonjour from your pc to a person in Indonesian ISP and another in Australia and one just freshly joining from Finland without creating Tunnels/VPNs

Multicast is one to many unlike one to one (unicast)
aryoba
MVM
join:2002-08-22

1 edit

aryoba

MVM

Da Geek Kid,

Multicast commonly exists within private network. In your illustration, such private network is in a form of global private network which is typical in global organizations such as market data companies.

I have configured network that has spanned multicast hosts across multiple subnets. To communicate, you could do unicast routing to properly pointing such hosts. Even simple static routes would serve such routing.

Da Geek Kid
join:2003-10-11
::1

Da Geek Kid to jhhyde

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to jhhyde
to make your job easier, Place the Bonjour server in both vlans by using 2 NICs on the box...
Da Geek Kid

2 edits

Da Geek Kid to aryoba

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to aryoba
.
jhhyde
join:2006-12-22
Dobbs Ferry, NY

jhhyde to aryoba

Member

to aryoba
Thanks for the input. The debate actually answers a lot of questions.

I've rethought my question, and have most of your questions answered Aryoba.

- Topology: »216.71.70.67/images/bonjour.jpeg

- Network Gears: Cisco 2800 series Router, 2948G-TX 48 port switch

- I cannot find information on the PIM support. I assume that it is Sparse, because it is quick to respond to changes in the environment, and because I see constant requests and acknowledgments spread over time on a packet sniffer rather than bursts that I would assume to see with a dense setting. Perhaps this is flawed, so correct me if I'm wrong.
aryoba
MVM
join:2002-08-22

aryoba to jhhyde

MVM

to jhhyde
jhhyde,

Several questions to clarify

1. Was the Bonjour already deployed and still not working; or was the Bonjour about to be deployed?

2. Were there reasons why would you remove the Cisco router?

3. Were you replacing the Cisco router with other equipment? Probably with Layer-3 switch?

4. On Bonjour system, which device should be sending packets to 224.0.0.251 IP? Which device should be receiving packets on 224.0.0.251?

bbarrera
MVM
join:2000-10-23
Sacramento, CA

bbarrera to jhhyde

MVM

to jhhyde
Google "bonjour multicast subnets" and you'll find some interesting reading and information about proxies if your router cannot forward the multicast traffic.
jhhyde
join:2006-12-22
Dobbs Ferry, NY

jhhyde

Member

1) Bonjour is already deployed on both networks

2) yes, we wished to simplify the network implementation and topology

3) We are going to be replacing the router functions with Extreme 300 series Layer 3 switches

4) We are comfortable allowing any and all devices to share this service, so we do not wish to make a static route for one host over another.

BBarrera; thank you for the Google query.
aryoba
MVM
join:2002-08-22

aryoba

MVM

1. Are currently all hosts having a single default gateway within one subnet? Or are all hosts having multiple gateways with each subnet?

2. Since Bonjour is already deployed, I would assume there are working and non-working parts. Please provide details on both working and non-working parts

3. Any packet captures, logs, router and switch configurations would be helpful
jhhyde
join:2006-12-22
Dobbs Ferry, NY

jhhyde

Member

1) I will give you this example to answer this question. We have the "1" network at 192.168.1.X/24 who's gateway is 192.168.1.1 and the "2" network 192.168.2.X/24 who's gateway is 192.168.2.1. So the physical gateway is the same, but would this be considered multiple gateways with each subnet?

2) The only working parts to our current Bonjour deployment is that the "1" or "2" network can browse and utilize bonjour advertised network devices, but the two networks do not "see" one another's bonjour devices. That is to say, a printer advertising on the "1" network will not be "seen" by bonjour browsers on the "2" network, effectively cutting them off from being able to use them.

3) I'll put some "cleaned" config files and packet traces up here in a bit, given that it's a public board.

Also, another question. What are the benefits/deficits of routing all UDP traffic across the router? Is it the default behavior of a route to allow all TCP traffic, and only explicitly defined UDP traffic? This pertains to a Cisco 2800 router, IOS Version 12.3(8r)T7
aryoba
MVM
join:2002-08-22

aryoba

MVM

1. I would guess the following

* each host within 192.168.1.0/24 is totally different physical equipment than the each host within 192.168.2.0/24
* no hosts have multiple NIC card
* no hosts directly connected to both 192.168.1.0/24 and .2.0/24 subnets
* each NIC card within hosts is only connected to one subnet (either the .1.0/24 or .2.0/24)
* gateways of 192.168.1.1 and 192.168.2.1 are within the same equipment, which is the Cisco 2800 series router

Are these guesses correct?

2, 3. I would wait for the configurations and packet traces to understand the situation clearer

To answer the UDP and TCP traffic routing, here it goes. By default a router (of any brand, any model, any Cisco routers running any IOS image version) would route any IP traffic, including UDP and TCP traffic. Therefore it is not a default behavior to route all TCP traffic and to restrict UDP traffic routing.

bbarrera
MVM
join:2000-10-23
Sacramento, CA

bbarrera to jhhyde

MVM

to jhhyde
said by jhhyde:

2) The only working parts to our current Bonjour deployment is that the "1" or "2" network can browse and utilize bonjour advertised network devices, but the two networks do not "see" one another's bonjour devices. That is to say, a printer advertising on the "1" network will not be "seen" by bonjour browsers on the "2" network, effectively cutting them off from being able to use them.
Wide-area service discovery will solve that problem, you have several options:
»www.dns-sd.org/
jhhyde
join:2006-12-22
Dobbs Ferry, NY

jhhyde to aryoba

Member

to aryoba
Yes, all your guesses are correct in this instance. Sorry for the guessing, I have to learn more about networking to begin to ask more coherent questions.

Thank you for the link bbarrera, I'm going there now.
aryoba
MVM
join:2002-08-22

1 edit

aryoba

MVM

jhhyde,

I would assume that your version of Bonjour is not supporting the WAN as bbarrera pointed out. As a long-term solution, you then should upgrade the Bonjour to support the WAN. Check out Apple website for such info.

As workaround (temporary short-term solutions), I have several suggestions. Without yet looking at the router and switch configurations and packet traces, here are my suggestions.

Option 1: IRB (Integrated Routing Bridging)
* Set the .1.0/24 and .2.0/24 router interfaces to have larger subnet mask such as /22
* Change the router mode to IRB
* Change all Bonjour hosts subnet mask to also /22 to match the router subnet mask
* You can keep the existing router and host IP addresses; change only the subnet mask

Option 2: NAT (Network Address Translation)
* Locate used and unused IP addresses within each .1.0/24 and .2.0/24 subnets
* Create static NAT between Bonjour hosts within .1.0/24 and unused .2.0/24 IP addresses
* Similarly, create static NAT between Bonjour hosts within .2.0/24 and unused .1.0/24 IP addresses
* With this NAT setup, all .2.0/24 Bonjour hosts should look local from all .1.0/24 Bonjour hosts' perspective; and vice versa
* The .2.0/24 Bonjour hosts should access the NAT-ed IP of the .1.0/24 Bonjour hosts to intercommunicate; and vice versa
* Note that with this NAT approach, you would need another router or dedicated NAT box to do the static NAT

bbarrera
MVM
join:2000-10-23
Sacramento, CA

bbarrera to jhhyde

MVM

to jhhyde
said by jhhyde:

I have for sake of argument network 1 and network 2. I have a specialized RIP server (xserve 10.4) for printing. What I'd like to do is allow for users of both the 1 and 2 networks to browse via Bonjour the printers that reside in network 2. Essentially the people in Network 1 need to be able to see those printers which are served from this RIP software. The software generates it's own printer "mounts" using Bonjour as its broadcast method.
I'd follow the advice of the »www.dns-sd.org/ website and add a couple of records to the DNS server...
quote:
One of easiest applications of Wide-Area DNS-SD is simply to add a few records to your DNS server, to automatically advertise selected services to clients, with zero configuration on the client side.
You should have this up and running with little effort, no client config, and no special routing.

Da Geek Kid
join:2003-10-11
::1

Da Geek Kid to jhhyde

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to jhhyde
Jhhyde,

you could either follow what I mentioned above, multi nics on the server, or bbarrera's dns-sd... I was looking for that thanks bbarrera...

As for aryoba, Bonjour is not supporting because it uses 224 multicast, but than again, you know better...