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<title>Topic &#x27;Re: Judge orders defendant decrypt PGP protected laptop drive&#x27; in forum &#x27;Security&#x27; - dslreports.com</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21981905</link>
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<language>en</language>
<pubDate>Sat, 23 Apr 2022 12:45:32 EDT</pubDate>
<lastBuildDate>Sat, 23 Apr 2022 12:45:32 EDT</lastBuildDate>

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<title>Re: Judge orders defendant decrypt PGP protected laptop drive</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21993075</link>
<description><![CDATA[FFH5 posted : <div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/1570380" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1570380');">GyroCaptain</a>:</small><br><br>And..why is Homeland Security involved in all of this?? <br> </div>The person was crossing from Canada to the US. The Border Patrol & Customs fall under Homeland Security Dept.<br><small>--<br><A HREF="http://tinyurl.com/bqv2h"><b>My BLOG ..</b></a><A HREF="http://tinyurl.com/2a9xcb"><i> .. Internet News ..</i></a><A HREF="http://tinyurl.com/yz8xto"><b> .. My Web Page</b></a></small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 28 Feb 2009 18:46:04 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Judge orders defendant decrypt PGP protected laptop drive</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21993072</link>
<description><![CDATA[GyroCaptain posted : I am very surprised that Homeland Security and the ICE Prude Patrol do NOT have the passphrase already. Did they not do some type of surveillance on the kid, maybe install a hardware keylogger on his system to get the pass? They do it with the Mob all the time. <br><br>And..why is Homeland Security involved in all of this?? Aren't there enough terrorists and illegal aliens roaming around for the to catch, or are teenage pervs the IN thing now?]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 28 Feb 2009 18:44:24 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Judge orders defendant decrypt PGP protected laptop drive</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21992408</link>
<description><![CDATA[nwrickert posted : I agree that we should continue protesting such actions.  My comment was just being realistic about how legislators will view the issues.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 28 Feb 2009 16:08:28 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Judge orders defendant decrypt PGP protected laptop drive</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21992347</link>
<description><![CDATA[OZO posted : The main problem here is - it will be too late...<br>If privacy has eroded - it's impossible to restore it back :(]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 28 Feb 2009 15:55:39 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Judge orders defendant decrypt PGP protected laptop drive</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21992283</link>
<description><![CDATA[nwrickert posted : <div class="bquote">Again, the sooner we realize that - the better.</div>Well we already realize that.  The problem is with congress critters.  And some of those might never realize it.  We can at least hope that, as they die off, their replacements from a younger generation will be more knowledgeable about digital information.<br><small>--<br>AT&T dsl; Westell 327w modem/router; openSuSE 11.0; firefox 3.0.6</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 28 Feb 2009 15:40:53 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Judge orders defendant decrypt PGP protected laptop drive</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21992258</link>
<description><![CDATA[OZO posted : Yes, indeed.<br><br>SlickEnW <A HREF="/useremail/u/757195"><i class='fa fa-user'></i></A> - thanks for sharing with us yet another way to hide important information from snooping eyes.<br><br>And again, it just proves one more time that information (I specifically use this term to focus on an essence, not on implementations, like files or data streams) is not an old "goods" and you can't treat it like this old category. Again, the sooner we realize that - the better.<br><br>So, how effective is the program to spend money on checking computers at customs? And compare the cost with cost of disregarding our rights to privacy by allowing the searches.<br><small>--<br>Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 28 Feb 2009 15:34:52 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Judge orders defendant decrypt PGP protected laptop drive</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21992092</link>
<description><![CDATA[SlickEnW posted : Just for clarification here is some things that truecrypt can do that would have made this individual less of a target. I'll use my setup as an example.<br><br>I have a USB drive that , for everyone else, will appear unformatted and relatively useless. If some guy "found" my drive they would probably accidentally format it anyway. <br><br>Once the drive is inserted but not mounted, you have to go to truecrypt (cant use any other program to mount it) and select the device, which will show no additional partitions.<br><br>You'll then be prompted for the password. If you enter the wrong password, it will say "wrong password or not a truecrypt volume". You can also have two passwords, one for the dummy partition, and one for the partition with the important files on it. Each respective partition will show up to be the same size of the entire device, so if you have a 4 gb flash drive, there will be four gigs available on each device, not 2 gigs for each obviously throwing in suspicion. <br><br>If the first dummy drive is modified in any way, the contents of the second "important" drive will be rendered useless. You throw in some dummy files as part of the encryption process, and then the 'important' second partition sort of wraps around that data.<br><br>In a nutshell, someone would need to specifically know that you are using truecrypt, and even then, you'd be able to use the other password. <br><br>One could easily say "oh, that flash drive is formatted for mac instead of windows, thats why it won't read" etc etc. <br><br>Too easy.  ]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 28 Feb 2009 14:53:44 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Judge orders defendant decrypt PGP protected laptop drive</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21990389</link>
<description><![CDATA[81399672 posted : <div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/1531837" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1531837');">Its a Secret</a>:</small><br><br><div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/1358638" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1358638');">81399672</a>:</small><br><br> Don't matter if you're us citizen, when cross us border, us customs can confiscate your laptop for undetermine amount of time. </div> Sorry if I was unclear but, what I was saying is, if I cross into the US with a laptop that I don't want to have looked at, I'm still in the USA at the border station, and am subject to US laws at that point.<br> </div>You would think so but that is not how it works and supreme court have already ruled on it. They don't need a warrant to inspect your laptop at the cross, if you refuse to enter your password they can confiscate it. Which basically means you will likely never see it again.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 28 Feb 2009 04:37:57 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Judge orders defendant decrypt PGP protected laptop drive</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21990287</link>
<description><![CDATA[Its a Secret posted : But it takes waaaay to long to get there! 7th heaven is good enough for me. :D<br><small>--<br>"In the future, that which is not mandatory will be illegal"</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 28 Feb 2009 03:01:16 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Judge orders defendant decrypt PGP protected laptop drive</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21990279</link>
<description><![CDATA[FunnyBones posted : <div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/1531837" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1531837');">Its a Secret</a>:</small><br><br>I thought Gitmo was closed...  :D<br> </div>I was thinking gutmann sounds like a much better place than gitmo.  ;)<br><small>--<br>Fb:2009 The nightmare men have returned.</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 28 Feb 2009 02:54:37 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Judge orders defendant decrypt PGP protected laptop drive</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21990266</link>
<description><![CDATA[Its a Secret posted : I thought Gitmo was closed...  :D]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 28 Feb 2009 02:42:59 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Judge orders defendant decrypt PGP protected laptop drive</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21990263</link>
<description><![CDATA[FunnyBones posted : <div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/1531837" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1531837');">Its a Secret</a>:</small><br><br>FB, you have to know that will become illegal...and incriminating unto itself. ;)<br> </div>lol maybe but would be fun to watch as they force you to give up the password.  :D<br><small>--<br>Fb:2009 The nightmare men have returned.</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 28 Feb 2009 02:38:28 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Judge orders defendant decrypt PGP protected laptop drive</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21990261</link>
<description><![CDATA[Its a Secret posted : FB, you have to know that will become illegal...and incriminating unto itself. ;)<br><small>--<br>"In the future, that which is not mandatory will be illegal"</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 28 Feb 2009 02:37:24 EDT</pubDate>
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<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21990245</link>
<description><![CDATA[FunnyBones posted : <div class="bquote"><small>said by cvgdfghdfg :</small><br><br>Some people here are saying that the legal system doesn't want him to provide the password, but to just enter it into the PGP encrypted container and then decrypt the file.<br><br>Even if the password is hidden as he types it into the container, just the mere fact that he knows the correct password is incriminating and proves that he has knowledge of the encrypted container, probably created the encrypted container and probably is responsible for the contents of the encrypted container.<br><br>It is still self incriminating<br> </div>You know open source is great I wonder how everyone would feel about new system of one password that unlocks the files and another that will wipe the data clean. :)<br><br>This government abuse needs to end... <br><small>--<br>Fb:2009 The nightmare men have returned.</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 28 Feb 2009 02:31:29 EDT</pubDate>
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<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21990223</link>
<description><![CDATA[anon posted : Some people here are saying that the legal system doesn't want him to provide the password, but to just enter it into the PGP encrypted container and then decrypt the file.<br><br>Even if the password is hidden as he types it into the container, just the mere fact that he knows the correct password is incriminating and proves that he has knowledge of the encrypted container, probably created the encrypted container and probably is responsible for the contents of the encrypted container.<br><br>It is still self incriminating]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 28 Feb 2009 02:20:41 EDT</pubDate>
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<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21990123</link>
<description><![CDATA[OZO posted : Blackbird <A HREF="/useremail/u/1140294"><i class='fa fa-user'></i></A> - thank you for clarification.<br><br>Information is not a goods. It's a new reality.<br><br>Even with big money and old thinking coming from array of dinosaurs like **AA it will never become "goods". It's not a matter, it can't be destroyed, physically moved or become a contraband. And the sooner we realize that - the better.<br><small>--<br>Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 28 Feb 2009 01:33:25 EDT</pubDate>
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<description><![CDATA[Its a Secret posted : <div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/755055" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=755055');">OZO</a>:</small><br><br> Then what is the point of snooping in computers??? </div> Stupid people still do this stuff. The smart ones don't get caught.<div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/755055" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=755055');">OZO</a>:</small><br><br> May be better spend the money to do detective job domestically, finding and investigating them here, not at the border? Let's think about it. </div>The Gov hasn't got this finer point yet...<br><small>--<br>"In the future, that which is not mandatory will be illegal"</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 28 Feb 2009 01:18:14 EDT</pubDate>
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<description><![CDATA[OZO posted : <div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/668609" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=668609');">EGeezer</a>:</small><br><br>When you get right down to it, the practice will only thwart the stupid criminal. The smarter ones would simply spend a few bucks for a micro SD card, about the size of a fingernail, and hide it.</div>Then what is the point of snooping in computers???<br><br>Even if forget about our privacy and/or proprietary know-how secrets for a sec - it's completely dumb idea from its implementation stand point. It will take money to organize the process and teach personal how to do it (otherwise you'll spend money on a trial that easily could take many years, in this case - since 2006 - without an outcome), it takes resources, and time (both for custom and people going through it). And what the result will be? One more stupid pervert will be in jail? May be better spend the money to do detective job domestically, finding and investigating them here, not at the border? Let's think about it.  <br><br><div class="bquote">As a businessman, I'm not too thrilled about some low-wage agent sifting through any proprietary information I might have on my system. From what I read, there is some opposition from businesses to the random snooping.  <br> </div>As a citizen I not thrilled about the process of eroding my rights neither.<br><br>And even more - I'm not thrilled at all watching how we (some begin to call us - <A HREF="http://encyclopedia.tfd.com/Sheeple">sheeple</a>?) allow the slippery slope to happen now... :(<br><small>--<br>Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 28 Feb 2009 01:09:20 EDT</pubDate>
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<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21990049</link>
<description><![CDATA[Blackbird posted : <div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/755055" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=755055');">OZO</a>:</small><br><br>Can an information be a contraband? Can one confiscate information? Or we still looking at things from yesterday's perspective...<br><br>Computer is only one form of a media, BTW. Then what is the point of confiscating media if data (information) could be easily transferred via different forms of media? </div>That touches on a key underlying issue, with broad implications reaching far beyond just this kind of case. Contraband is generally defined as goods that are legally prohibited in trade. Goods, in turn, are defined as something with economic utility. <br><br>If digital files have economic utility (and many do), the interpretation in high places currently seems to be that they qualify as "goods" and are subject to rules of import and contraband... as well as copyright control. As such, searching for embargoed "goods" (which includes "illegal" goods) would then include searching for child porn files, pirated or import-restricted software, and various other things on incoming computers. And it is this very interpretation of digital files as goods that underlies the entire array of **AA attempts at penalizing unauthorized downloading of copyrighted media and pursuing legal sanctions against end-users and participants.<br><br>I don't necessarily agree with many of the current interpretations in these areas - but I do recognize that they exist. They are current reality. And I have to deal with them appropriately in the real world. Until (or unless) such interpretations are eventually changed or bounded more carefully, I would be foolish to ignore current reality and its consequences. That would include attempting to ignore customs rules and embargoes when bringing anything into the country, digital media of any sort included. And it would include exercising great caution with regard to what and how I was downloading particular material.<br><br>This entire issue of digital material desperately needs clarification and the setting of realistic boundaries by reasonable, technically-knowledgeable, Constitutionally-oriented people. A number of laws need to be revised extensively and clarified - particularly laws that predate the digital era. This may or may not happen as I hope...  you can place your own bets, according to what you believe about governments and centers of influence. But until something changes along these lines, numbers of citizens will continue finding themselves embroiled in complex court cases they perhaps could have avoided with some foresight, forebearance, and common sense... and those legal experiences can cost them a LOT.<br><small>--<br>If God wanted us to work with electrons, He'd make them big enough to see...</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 28 Feb 2009 01:02:26 EDT</pubDate>
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<description><![CDATA[EGeezer posted : When you get right down to it, the practice will only thwart the stupid criminal. The smarter ones would simply spend a few bucks for a micro SD card, about the size of a fingernail, and hide it. <br><br>As a businessman, I'm not too thrilled about some low-wage agent sifting through any proprietary information I might have on my system. From what I read, there is some opposition from businesses to the random snooping.  <br><small>--<br>The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding. -- Justice Louis D. Brandeis</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 28 Feb 2009 00:37:04 EDT</pubDate>
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<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21989877</link>
<description><![CDATA[Its a Secret posted : <div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/755055" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=755055');">OZO</a>:</small><br><br> Any software could be installed (including a rootkit, loggers and special malware) without your consent or knowledge. </div> There was a thread about TSA (or whatever the hell the acronym was...) at the airport and, plugging in a drive to your LT and examing it for 'stuff'. I didn't trust it for the same reason.<br><small>--<br>"In the future, that which is not mandatory will be illegal"</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 28 Feb 2009 00:09:25 EDT</pubDate>
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<description><![CDATA[OZO posted : <div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/1376598" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1376598');">swhx7</a>:</small><br><br>The best hope for protection of citizens' rights here is actually the business sector's interests. Normally these are far from consistent with public interest. But in this case, once the corporations realize that their business secrets are subject to exposure by border agents, they may lobby to limit the inspections so that their employees can travel with corporate files on the laptops without fear of running into this kind of snafu.<br> </div>You're making very valid point. If we, the people do not give a damn about our rights, the last resort is business interests.<br><br>Now, from this prospective, computer during so called "custom search" could be easily compromised. Any software could be installed (including a rootkit, loggers and special malware) without your consent or knowledge. It means that if you give your computer for that search - be prepared to re-image it immediately after this procedure. How about that cost?<br><small>--<br>Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 28 Feb 2009 00:02:05 EDT</pubDate>
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<description><![CDATA[Its a Secret posted : <div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/755055" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=755055');">OZO</a>:</small><br><br>Because of a temporary convenience?<br><br>If this dangerous tendency of submitting all our rights to government power to search and track everything, it could be easily replaced with an other form of media soon. But I hope the common sense will prevail. </div> I think you're bang on the money. But, common sense is not that common these days, my friend. heh!<br><small>--<br>"In the future, that which is not mandatory will be illegal"</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 23:58:58 EDT</pubDate>
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<description><![CDATA[OZO posted : Because of a temporary convenience?<br><br>If this dangerous tendency of submitting all our rights to government power to search and track everything, it could be easily replaced with an other form of media soon. But I hope the common sense will prevail.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 23:54:57 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Judge orders defendant decrypt PGP protected laptop drive</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21989796</link>
<description><![CDATA[Its a Secret posted : <div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/755055" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=755055');">OZO</a>:</small><br><br>Can an information be a contraband? Can one confiscate information? </div> Of course it can, especially if the courier isn't sure of the 'parcel'.<div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/755055" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=755055');">OZO</a>:</small><br><br>Then what is the point of confiscating media if data (information) could be easily transferred via different forms of media?<br> </div>There is none.  ;) More to the point, if data is easily transferred, why use a computer?<br><small>--<br>"In the future, that which is not mandatory will be illegal"</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 23:47:42 EDT</pubDate>
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<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21989772</link>
<description><![CDATA[OZO posted : Can an information be a contraband? Can one confiscate information? Or we still looking at things from yesterday's perspective...<br><br>Computer is only one form of a media, BTW. Then what is the point of confiscating media if data (information) could be easily transferred via different forms of media?<br><small>--<br>Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 23:40:14 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Judge orders defendant decrypt PGP protected laptop drive</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21989704</link>
<description><![CDATA[Its a Secret posted : I expressed that exact thought here: <div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/1531837" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1531837');">Its a Secret</a>:</small><br><br> However, the 'evidence' said border guard may testify to, could possibly construed as hearsay, and I'll bet the defense will grill him on that. 'Suspicious' filenames do not constitute proof of anything. </div> I think this is the crux of it. Is this considered hearsay, or is this testimony based on a law enforcement officers credibility, and ability to remember crucial details?<br><br>I believe this is a critical juncture in the case. That said, officers have been known to 'stretch' the truth a tad...<br><small>--<br>"In the future, that which is not mandatory will be illegal"</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 23:16:31 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Judge orders defendant decrypt PGP protected laptop drive</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21989644</link>
<description><![CDATA[anon posted : <div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/766601" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=766601');">AVD</a>:</small><br><br>They aren't asking him to divulge the password, only to type it into the laptop.<br> </div>In this instance that's rather like placing a loaded .45 automatic on the table and asking him to point it at his head and pull the trigger. <br><br>The next question to ask is - did the CBP agents lie about what they saw or thought they saw in determining 'probable cause'? Just because they're 'law enforcement' doesn't mean that they didn't lie. It happens all the time.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 23:02:06 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Judge orders defendant decrypt PGP protected laptop drive</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21989626</link>
<description><![CDATA[swhx7 posted : Sometimes it matters a lot what kind of case it is that sets a precedent. The defendant here is rather unlikely to excite sympathy, and that's dangerous. As Its a Secret <A HREF="/useremail/u/1531837"><i class='fa fa-user'></i></A> notes above:<br><br><div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/1531837" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1531837');">Its a Secret</a>:</small><br><br>You seem to be missing the point, and that is, if he can be made to testify against himself, you can be too. ... As soon as you start to rationlize who and what is worthy of the law, it exposes anyone that is accused to unlawful search and seizures[.] </div><br>The best hope for protection of citizens' rights here is actually the business sector's interests. Normally these are far from consistent with public interest. But in this case, once the corporations realize that their business secrets are subject to exposure by border agents, they may lobby to limit the inspections so that their employees can travel with corporate files on the laptops without fear of running into this kind of snafu.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 22:55:06 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Judge orders defendant decrypt PGP protected laptop drive</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21989470</link>
<description><![CDATA[anon posted : as far as accessing unencrypted files goes, yes, they are normally capable of searching that, but they are NOT capable of searching encrypted drives, and the owner should NOT be penalized for having one, ALSO, the presence of encrypted drives does NOT imply WHATSOEVER that what is contained in them is ILLEGAL, so there would be no cause to suspect anything ILLEGAL on them, even REFUSING to unencrypt the drives is NOT SUSPICIOUS, maybe he has something on there that would embarrass him, or fells too personal to expose to strangers, like pictures of himself and his wife nude, or love letters, who knows?.. in this PARTICULAR case, however, SUSPICION was raised, as he HIMSELF, unencrypted the drive, HOWEVER, lacking the ACTUAL EVIDENCE to be presented to a JURY, this case is VERY weak, and the prosecutors would like the defendant to incriminate himself by giving them the EVIDENCE..]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 22:21:04 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Judge orders defendant decrypt PGP protected laptop drive</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21989453</link>
<description><![CDATA[Its a Secret posted : Thanks for the clarification on this.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 22:17:32 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Judge orders defendant decrypt PGP protected laptop drive</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21989368</link>
<description><![CDATA[Blackbird posted : Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution grants Congress the power to tax and regulate imports into the US. When a citizen crosses the border in returning to the US, he must demonstrate Customs compliance with importation rules and prohibitions for whatever he is bringing in besides his person. It is a hat-in-hand application to government for permission to import whatever he is carrying with him. Much of the time, Customs compliance is routine and obvious for typical personal belongings, etc. and only items purchased outside the US are usually examined. But the point is that the government has Constitutional power to investigate whatever a citizen attempts to bring in.<br><br>Normally, likely contraband at points of entry will be seized for closer inspection and possible confiscation, because points of entry are on US soil and US Customs laws and regulations apply. The laws prohibiting/regulating importation typically specify government seizure for detailed inspection and (if found to be contraband) ultimate disposition, particularly in cases of non-cooperation. The carrier of suspected contraband is not normally allowed to retrieve it and return to his point of origin; he probably will not even be permitted to simply return by himself either, since attempted importation of certain items is itself a criminal act.<br><br>Which leaves the citizen bringing in a laptop squarely at the mercy of Customs rules regarding the importation of software materials, which includes a prohibition of importation of illegal materials. The citizen, if he wishes to bring a laptop in, may have to cooperatively demonstrate that no contraband software exists on the laptop - at the discretion of the border inspector. The citizen can refuse to cooperate with such initial inspection, but he thus risks relinquishing the laptop for "detailed and extended Customs inspection", and the possibility of facing criminal charges if there is found to be anything there that is deemed to be illegal or in violation of Customs rules. If the laptop is encrypted, things can become murky from a legal standpoint as to how far Customs can go with it while searching for anything in violation of the import rules... or whether the laptop owner's lack of cooperation alone constitutes grounds for at least the laptop's ultimate seizure and disposal.<br><small>--<br>If God wanted us to work with electrons, He'd make them big enough to see...</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 21:55:45 EDT</pubDate>
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<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21989263</link>
<description><![CDATA[anon posted : <div class="bquote"><small>said by truth :</small><br><br>the fact is, without the actual evidence, which only a jury can decide whether or not it's illegal, by actually examining it and making a determination of whether or not it's truly illegal, i don't see a conviction, you'd have the testimony of the officers, but THEY are not jurers, and can be mistaken as to what they THOUGHT they saw..and only a jury, during a trial, can determine what IS and IS NOT illegal..<br> </div>ALSO, he DON'T posses it anymore, it can't be proven it's on his hard drive...(or STILL on it)]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 21:34:17 EDT</pubDate>
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<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21989245</link>
<description><![CDATA[anon posted : the fact is, without the actual evidence, which only a jury can decide whether or not it's illegal, by actually examining it and making a determination of whether or not it's truly illegal, i don't see a conviction, you'd have the testimony of the officers, but THEY are not jurers, and can be mistaken as to what they THOUGHT they saw..and only a jury, during a trial, can determine what IS and IS NOT illegal..]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 21:30:14 EDT</pubDate>
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<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21989151</link>
<description><![CDATA[Its a Secret posted : What troll, oh anonymous one...? From your posts, you seem to call troll a lot. The pot and the kettle it seems...]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 21:09:02 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Judge orders defendant decrypt PGP protected laptop drive</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21989141</link>
<description><![CDATA[anon posted : Successful, troll is successful.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 21:07:30 EDT</pubDate>
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<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21989116</link>
<description><![CDATA[Its a Secret posted : If that's the case, I apologise for being obtuse...]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 21:03:34 EDT</pubDate>
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<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21989093</link>
<description><![CDATA[Snowy posted : <div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/1531837" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1531837');">Its a Secret</a>:</small><br><br><div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/795407" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=795407');">Snowy</a>:</small><br><br> Bottom line: refusing to comply in the absence of oozing green gel is not against the law.<br> </div> Quite true. But, Customs has the right to detain you and search your vehicle, or possessions for contraband. That's all I'm saying.<br> </div>Yes, & what your saying is absolutely 100% true.<br>But only <i>after</i> agreeing to such a search.<br>I believe with regards to an automobile you even need to sign off on that before any search is begun.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:59:31 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Judge orders defendant decrypt PGP protected laptop drive</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21989067</link>
<description><![CDATA[Its a Secret posted : <div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/795407" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=795407');">Snowy</a>:</small><br><br> Bottom line: refusing to comply in the absence of oozing green gel is not against the law.<br> </div> Quite true. But, Customs has the right to detain you and search your vehicle, or possessions for contraband. That's all I'm saying.<br><small>--<br>"In the future, that which is not mandatory will be illegal"</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:53:50 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Judge orders defendant decrypt PGP protected laptop drive</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21989042</link>
<description><![CDATA[Its a Secret posted : <div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/1358638" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1358638');">81399672</a>:</small><br><br> Don't matter if you're us citizen, when cross us border, us customs can confiscate your laptop for undetermine amount of time. </div> Sorry if I was unclear but, what I was saying is, if I cross into the US with a laptop that I don't want to have looked at, I'm still in the USA at the border station, and am subject to US laws at that point.<br><small>--<br>"In the future, that which is not mandatory will be illegal"</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:48:58 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Judge orders defendant decrypt PGP protected laptop drive</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21989033</link>
<description><![CDATA[Snowy posted : <div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/1531837" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1531837');">Its a Secret</a>:</small><br><br><div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/795407" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=795407');">Snowy</a>:</small><br><br>But keeping it real, the option of going back to whence you came without the 3rd degree is going to be available. </div> But you have to remember, you're on US soil now, and that's what makes the difference, n'est ce pas?<br> </div>I'm not an expert on the subject, I'm sure there's plenty of web based references for anyone interested in the matter.<br>What I am familiar with is my options, which every citizen should be aware of.<br>Whether it's based on principles or my own personal belief system or even the possibility of being caught with undeclared peanut butter, I have the absolute right to refuse to comply.<br>Bottom line: refusing to comply in the absence of oozing green gel is not against the law.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:47:40 EDT</pubDate>
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<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21988969</link>
<description><![CDATA[Snowy posted : <div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/340145" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=340145');">Steve</a>:</small><br><br><div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/795407" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=795407');">Snowy</a>:</small><br><br>the option of going back to whence you came without the 3rd degree is going to be available.</div>What if you're an American citizen being stopped on the way home?<br> </div>You got it right here<br><div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/340145" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=340145');">Steve</a>:</small><br><br><div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/766601" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=766601');">AVD</a>:</small><br><br>1) Leave your laptop at home, dummy.<br> </div>It's not that simple; many simply require it for work purposes. A better list might be:<br><br>1) Leave your pr0n at home, dummy.<br> </div>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:37:10 EDT</pubDate>
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<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21988965</link>
<description><![CDATA[81399672 posted : <div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/1531837" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1531837');">Its a Secret</a>:</small><br><br><div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/795407" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=795407');">Snowy</a>:</small><br><br>But keeping it real, the option of going back to whence you came without the 3rd degree is going to be available. </div> But you have to remember, you're on US soil now, and that's what makes the difference, n'est ce pas?<br> </div>Don't matter if you're us citizen, when cross us border, us customs can confiscate your laptop for undetermine amount of time. ]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:36:03 EDT</pubDate>
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<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21988951</link>
<description><![CDATA[Its a Secret posted : <div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/795407" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=795407');">Snowy</a>:</small><br><br>But keeping it real, the option of going back to whence you came without the 3rd degree is going to be available. </div> But you have to remember, you're on US soil now, and that's what makes the difference, n'est ce pas?<br><small>--<br>"In the future, that which is not mandatory will be illegal"</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:32:57 EDT</pubDate>
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<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21988949</link>
<description><![CDATA[Steve posted : <div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/795407" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=795407');">Snowy</a>:</small><br><br>the option of going back to whence you came without the 3rd degree is going to be available.</div>What if you're an American citizen being stopped on the way home?]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:32:29 EDT</pubDate>
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<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21988934</link>
<description><![CDATA[Snowy posted : <div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/1531837" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1531837');">Its a Secret</a>:</small><br><br><div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/889509" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=889509');">sailor</a>:</small><br><br> <br>So, is it a law that every single person who has in their possession their notebook computer when crossing the border can automatically have it taken by an agent, turned on by said agent, and then that agent can look at any and all files on the notebook? Files, photos, emails etc?<br> </div>Yes, it is. They can seize it as well, should you not conform to their wishes.<br><br>edited<br> </div>OK, that's true.<br>If a laptop or even a bagel with cream cheese, lox & extra onion were smokin' & oozing a greenish gel emitting concentrated levels of gamma and beta radiation, sure, it's gonna be confiscated toute de suite. But keeping it real, the option of going back to whence you came without the 3rd degree is going to be available.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:30:18 EDT</pubDate>
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<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21988745</link>
<description><![CDATA[Its a Secret posted : <div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/167991" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=167991');">HFB1217</a>:</small><br><br>A court order is the same as a judge issuing a search warrant. Evidence of a crime is not the same as denying you right to self incrimination. Thus what is on the lap top is the crime and the court has the right to issue a warrant for both seizure and disclosure.<br> </div> However, the 'evidence' said border guard may testify to, could possibly construed as hearsay, and I'll bet the defense will grill him on that. 'Suspicious' filenames do not constitute proof of anything.<br><br><div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/889509" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=889509');">sailor</a>:</small><br><br> <br>So, is it a law that every single person who has in their possession their notebook computer when crossing the border can automatically have it taken by an agent, turned on by said agent, and then that agent can look at any and all files on the notebook? Files, photos, emails etc?<br> </div>Yes, it is. They can seize it as well, should you not conform to their wishes.<br><br>edited<br><small>--<br>"In the future, that which is not mandatory will be illegal"</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 19:44:47 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Judge orders defendant decrypt PGP protected laptop drive</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21988646</link>
<description><![CDATA[Solitude posted : sad]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 19:22:06 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Judge orders defendant decrypt PGP protected laptop drive</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21988525</link>
<description><![CDATA[Snowy posted : <div class="bquote"><small>said by <a href="/profile/889509" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=889509');">sailor</a>:</small><br><br>So, is it a law that every single person who has in their possession their notebook computer when crossing the border can automatically have it taken by an agent, turned on by said agent, and then that agent can look at any and all files on the notebook? Files, photos, banking info, read emails etc?<br> </div>FWIW, No, everyone has the right to decline a search of themselves or their property. The US Government also reserves the right to refuse entry based on this refusal.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21988525</guid>
<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:58:16 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Judge orders defendant decrypt PGP protected laptop drive</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Judge-orders-defendant-decrypt-PGP-protected-laptop-drive-21988439</link>
<description><![CDATA[KrK posted : The way I heard it, they didn't see any incriminating images, but they did see suspiciously named files, etc<br><br>I think if they had seen criminal content they could prosecute him based on their sworn testimony alone.<br><small>--<br>"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini<br></small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:43:29 EDT</pubDate>
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