Comcast XFINITY TV → Re: Motorola DCP-501 - no longer able to operate with Comcast

There are lots of ways of solving VOD access in a standard way that don't involve something as onerous as OCAP. Tivo's VOD implementation via RCN doesn't use OCAP.

But let me push a little farther. Let's say we aren't talking about VOD, then with that exception, you would agree that there is no requirement to use OCAP for 3rd party devices right?

No because with out OCAP there is no standard between box models for apps to run.

There are lots of apps that could be nice to have on a wide selection of hardware:
SDV
VOD (Concurrent, Arris, etc.)
EPGs (iGuide, Navigator, Moxi, Tivo, Passport, etc.)
CallerID on TV
Mosaic channels showing multiple pics on 1 screen
Widgets for Facebook, Myspace, Twitter
Games
Interactive polling
Interactive Billing and Services selection.
etc.

Imagine not being able to run Firefox on your PC because it was written for a HP computer with an AMD processor and you had a Dell with an Intel processor. or not being able to run a program because you had a trackball and the app was written for a mouse.

Middleware separates the apps from the hardware, so the apps don't have to be written for EVERY little variation in hardware they're loaded on. Windows, Linux, MacOS, Android, OCAP are all forms of Middleware.

Is there a standard for apps to run on all cell phones? How about all computers? How about all car radios? How about on all PMP's? How about on all cordless phones? How about on all TV's?

You know, normal CE devices?

For cell phones, computers, and some TVs there are platforms that can be run:

Cell phones:
Blackberry
Windows
Symbian
iPhone

Computers:
Windows
Linux
MacOS

TVs:
tru2way

Most CE devices don't run 3rd party apps or any external apps they didn't ship with.

BTW, the RCN VOD is available on RCN Tivo Premiere's, not standard off the shelf Tivos from what I've read. RCN worked with Tivo to create a custom app to run on the RCN Tivos. Several cable ops did something similar with Moxi's a few years ago.

Only in the Cable world is closed considered open. Working in the industry distorts your brain function I'm afraid.

The whole point here is that CE devices differentiate by being able to do things differently. There is NO standard for apps on desktop computers because there are different OS's available.

There are no industry standard for apps on cell phones because vendors of different platforms compete with each other.

And in none of the examples for CE devices mentioned is the carrier designing the interface and controlling it.

Tru2way is NO standard for this. 3rd party devices are not bound by it, and OCAP is irrelevant for Windows media center, irrelevant for appletv, irrelevant for TiVo, and most importantly, irrelevant for Android and Google, which have big plans in this space.

You truly have a screwed up worldview if you think this piece of crap called OCAP is going to be the standard for apps on Apple and Google devices!

Once we see Apple and Google devices talking to the cable network, people will be amazed at what they put up with in the past. It's like the smartphone world pre-iPhone. Except worse, because you could pick between windows CE and symbian before, and neither of them were designed by AT&T...

Enjoy your delusion if you will, but people have woken up and the FCC is finally going to take action to open up the world.

You truly don't understand.

You are right. I don't understand why the MSO's view of the world isn't the only valid one, and why closed video networks are really good for people.

I guess I don't like the Soviet style model where you pick any color you want as long as it's gray...

The MSOs view of the world isn't the only valid one.... they are trying to create a platform so more 3rd parties can come and play. They're trying to create the "Windows" or "Android" of the cable world, so OTHER parties can create apps to run, hardware to run it on, and have it all work together.

Trying to create that world for their platform is fine - they will fail miserably of course, as any carrier would.

The issue is that on non-MSO owned/leased boxes, is that OCAP regime forced on STB vendors and consumers, Soviet style... The answer cannot be yes.

If OCAP is so great, people would be clamoring to use it, like they are for Android and others. But it isn't great, and the control of the MSO over the platform is toxic to 3rd parties.

This is exactly how it works today and how it will work tomorrow. The MPEG2 stream is decrypted and handed to the tuner as is. Everything IS fine under your standards.

Advanced services is where Tru2Way comes in. In order to get a Tru2Way license, you have to abide by the criteria to get that license. How does a closed system, pay television, open it's network for more public use? Standards.

They went through many standards, trying to find the one that is the most widely known. Due to Asia and Europe darting ahead of us, it was convenient for us to find a world-wide standard already in use: Java. OCAP is a copy of the Asian and European cable systems, where one standard is chosen for the applications that BROADCASTERS will use to send to the end devices.

The end device does not need to use Java, it just needs to be able to execute it IF and only IF that end device wants to use the MSO's advanced services. If that box does NOT want to use the MSO's advanced services, it doesn't have to. Food for thought: YOU can build, sell, and have Comcast authorize for use on their network an STB that has NO access to their VoD but does have access to Netflix, a competing product. THAT'S OPEN.

The end device does not need to operate on OCAP, but it must USE OCAP for proprietary advanced services. If you are not interested in your retail device to access those functions, don't use the OCAP stack. OCAP is a stack, it is middleware. It is not an operating system.

Your argument doesn't hold up. You can build a box without Tru2Way. Tru2Way is a certification that your equipment will operate to standards. Your entire LIFE is filled with this!

-I want a state fishing license but shouldn't have to fill out the form.
-I want a driver's license but shouldn't have to take any tests.
-I want a concealed weapon carry permit but shouldn't have to show I've never been convicted of a felony.
-I want a voter's certification card but shouldn't have to provide my address to show I qualify.

This is your basis. If you want to USE the advanced services that the MVPD provides, you must present a piece of hardware that qualifies to use it. If you want to USE the basic services the MVPD provides, you don't.

The permission to play on someone else's property is not open source, never will be. But HOW, WHO, WHAT... is all described for me to be able to play on their property. That is open source. In fact, so are automobiles. But I have to register that automobile before I can sell it to the public. Airplanes are open source as well. Damn, need certification there too. I want to sell an "ethernet" compatible device. Nope, need IEEE certification. WiFi? Have to pay for certification there as well... what about cell phone? Nope, need to pay for certification on that one as well, CCF is one, and then one step further need FCC certification too!

-Tru2Way is restrictive to the applications and outside-MVPD network communication: false.
-Tru2Way is required for basic TV viewing: false.
-Tru2Way is closed source, only insiders know how to manufacture for it: false.
-Tru2Way is owned and controlled by Comcast, Time-Warner, and other cable companies only: false
-Tru2Way can change specifications at any time: false, review panel with 1 CE, 1 IT, and 1 MSO must approve.
-Tru2Way is costly compared to other licenses that are required to sell a box with a standard: false
-Tru2Way is required to make an STB: false
-Tru2Way will "take over" the retail box with the cable company's software: falseYou just aren't getting it.... OCAP has no role in this regard. Tru2Way is specifically in regards to TWO WAY COMMUNICATION between the box and the MSO. If the box wants to request to use the MSO's applications and services, it must meet the standards to do so. IF a cell phone wants to connect to a cell carrier, it must pass certification to do so... same thing. If a TiVo wants to run MacOS and use Boxee as a guide with listings from the internet, it can, no issues. If that TiVo wants to access advanced services on the MSO's network, such as VoD, then it must send that request in OCAP, which means the application will be written in Java and pass through the OCAP stack to communicate to the MSO, and must pass Tru2Way certification. The box doesn't have to do this, it could use alternate methods such as Hulu, Netflix, Amazon....

Analogy: It's bullshit that Dslreports forces me to use HTTP for it's forums. This should be OPEN, not this closed HTTP crap. Now my browser has to support HTTP. I should be able to chose to talk to Dslreport's forums in any protocol I want. Why does Dslreports use a closed network? Now I can't open Notepad anymore.

You make no sense.

Tru2Way is like HTTP, it is just a protocol to sling data. It includes both hardware and middleware to ensure all security keys, apps, and communication meets the standards through certification, a solid and widely used process to verify things made by someone else will play nicely on your property. Just like a car before it is allowed to be sold in the US. Just like a cell phone before it is allowed to be used in a cell network. Just like a motherboard before it can be sold with an ethernet port. Just like a BluRay player. Just like a DVD burner. Just like a SATA device. Just like a toy radio.

You guys are hopeless. MSO's don't get the right to force 3rd party guys to run MSO apps on their devices. Just the bits. You don't need OCAP for that.

Tru2way is dead anyway, The FCC is moving to a media gateway approach that will have a common protocol for DBS/telcoTV and Cable. Tru2way is only cable and therefore not a candidate.

I suppose the MSO could run tru2way in their gateway, but the Guide, UI, and the rest will be done by the 3rd party STB and all the gateway will do is deliver video bits. It's finally going to commoditize the spec for accessing video bits so that consumers can swap video providers without having to swap STB's.

I don't mind tru2way as long as the CE devices don't have to deal with it...

MSOs don't need 3rd party guys to run ANYTHING.

3rd party devices need MSO provided apps and standards to access cable VOD and other proprietary cable services.

If the 3rd party guys and their customers don't care about those services, they don't need tru2way. That is the state of the vast majority of CableCARD devices today, hence the Tivo and their inability to use cable VOD and other services.

Not quite. You need two way services to support SDV and autoprovisioning of cablecard. The MSO's say if you need both of these things you have to do tru2way, which carries all the nonsense we have been discussing.

The media gateway will remove the need for all that. It's a great idea...

At this point, it's just that: an idea.

An actual usable product is still years away.

SDV support doesn't need tru2way support. Tivo, Moxi and other compatible CableCARD devices can use the Tuning Adapters released a couple years ago:
»support.tivo.com/app/ans ··· d/100041
»www.moxi.com/us/support/ ··· 0318.pdf

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proposed interim measures would: (1) ensure that retail devices have comparable access to video programming that is prescheduled by the programming provider; (2) make CableCARD pricing and billing more transparent; (3) streamline CableCARD installations; and (4) clarify certification requirements.

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VoD is exempt. Tru2Way is the protocol that DLNA, MoCA, Ethernet, and other delivery systems will access to bridge into the cable network. Tru2Way will be on that gateway and devices will need certification to access it. The FCC is going to enforce Tru2Way, not take it away, before this is all done.

FCC can't touch VoD anyway. Congress would have to pass a whole new Telecom act. That would be a good 5 years away if they started yesterday, which they didn't.

MSO doesn't force 3rd party to do anything. They can, today, without Tru2Way:

access prescheduled programming
run competing EPG's either using the MSO data or not
access outside sources of programming
broadcast recordings to other devices as long as the copy-protect schema is carried throughout

Which, BTW, is DLNA or MoCa. Both standards that require the same as Tru2Way: certification. I suppose you view them as evil as well.

»hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_ ··· 65A1.pdf

Hmm, I don't see any tru2way in here:

»hd.engadget.com/2010/04/ ··· -allvid/

28 page PDF, referenced as the center piece of that stub you linked to... you didn't bother to read it? It has 4 paragraphs dedicated to Tru2Way discussing how the commission does not believe it's original proposed method of device integration for retail would succeed (a notion the NCTA and CableLabs already made public, Jan 11 and Mar 13 of this year).

quote:

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One other interesting note in the 28 page PDF is that the FCC thinks that either a dual tuner set-back box would work, or a 6 tuner version for the whole house -- or some combination. Source

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Link to the 28 page PDF

quote:

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More specifically, we introduce the concept of an adapter that could act either as a small “setback” device for connection to a single smart video device or as a gateway allowing all consumer electronics devices in the home to access multichannel video programming services. Unlike the existing cable-centric CableCARD technology, this adapter could make possible the development and marketing of smart video devices that attach to any MVPD service anywhere in the United States, which could greatly enhance the incentives for manufacturers to enter the retail market.

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quote:

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One possible reason for the lack of success in the implementation of Section 629 to date is that it was modeled on the earlier telephone service approach, rather than the second, broadband approach. As NCTA has pointed out, the interface requirement as it applies to telephone service is not completely analogous. We agree, and we believe that the approach to assuring device compatibility with broadband services may provide a better model for MVPD device compatibility.

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quote:

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The AllVid concept would follow the broadband approach. It would place the networkspecific functions such as conditional access, provisioning, reception, and decoding of the signal in one small, inexpensive operator-provided adapter, which could be either (i) a set-back device – which today could be as small as deck of cards – that attaches to the back of a consumer’s television set or set-top box, or (ii) a home gateway device that routes MVPD content throughout a subscriber’s home network. The adapter would act as a conduit to connect proprietary MVPD networks with navigation devices, TV sets, and a broad range of other equipment in the home. The AllVid adapter would communicate over open standards widely used in home communications protocols, as outlined below, enabling consumers to select and access content through navigation devices of their choosing purchased in a competitive retail market.

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quote:

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The AllVid adapter would perform only the functions necessary to support devices connected to the home network, and should connect to home network devices using a nationally supported standard interface that is common across MVPDs. We expect that an AllVid adapter could be inexpensive and physically small but, as set forth below, seek comment on those assumptions. We also envision that MVPDs would provide subscribers with the AllVid adapters (included in the price of service, or for a nominal lease fee, or with the option to purchase), and that AllVid adapters would likely not be portable across carriers.

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INTRODUCING, an already built FCC AllVid device!!!!!!



Tada! NCTA already has "AllVid", it's called Tru2Way. Panasonic and the NCTA developed this little box to communicate to any other device over HDMI-CEC. The FCC has JUST DEFINED THIS TRU2WAY SET BACK BOX as AllVid!

Panasonic's SBB

CableLabs officially releases SBB technical specifications

quote:

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We believe that the concept discussed below could give device manufacturers the ability to develop “smart” products that can access any service that an MVPD provides without the need to enter into restrictive license agreements with MVPDs. The concept also could give device manufacturers the ability to develop smart video devices that can access MVPD programming regardless of the delivery technology that the MVPD uses. Accordingly, we introduce and seek comment on a model that would require MVPDs to provide a small, low-cost adapter that would connect to proprietary MVPD networks and would provide a common interface for connection to televisions, DVRs, and other smart video devices, as described below. This adapter, a further development of the concept of the “gateway device” recommended in Chapter 4 of the National Broadband Plan,41 would perform the conditional access functions as well as tuning, reception, and upstream communication as directed by the smart video device. The adapter and the smart video device would communicate with each other using a standard interface, but each adapter would be systemspecific to a particular MVPD in order to communicate with its network. Innovations in a MVPDs’ delivery technology might require substitution of a new adapter but would not require the consumer to replace her smart video device or other in-home equipment.

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Who came up with this brilliant idea? CableLabs and Panasonic, it was named OCAP and later renamed Tru2Way where integration into the retail device failed and so the external "adapter" was born. The FCC is going to force the "idea" upon any MVPD who operates in the US. Cable is finished. DirecTV is going with the home-gateway approach. Dish, Uverse, and Fios have yet to begin.

Wrong. Tru2way does not work with satellite providers.

Or with FiOS.

Wrong. No one claimed Tru2Way worked with Satellite providers.

WTF?

quote:

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operator-provided adapter....
not be portable across carriers

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Each carrier will have it's own "AllVid" device. This will be Comcasts. The FCC itself, in it's own released document, has already said that Comcast's AllVid won't work with Sattelite or Fios or Uverse....

The AllVid adapter would communicate over open standards widely used in home communications protocols

No, HDMI-CEC does not count - DVRs don't implement it, PCs don't implement it, it's basically just for TVs, video players, cameras etc. This is a cable-specific way of delivering the video stream and is not an open systems way to do it.

The FCC is talking about IP, man. Make a tru2way adapter deliver mpeg2 (or mpeg4) in the clear over IP and then we'll talk. It's not rocket science.

100% incorrect. HDMI-CEC is "delivered in the clear" and is an open standard that is not cable-specific, as would DLNA and MoCA.

The FCC AllVid device is an enforcement standard between the retail device and the adapter. The standard is exempt between the adapter and the carrier. The carrier is free to implement any security and delivery technlogy they chose as long as the terminal will convert it into the AllVid standard for end-user retail devices to use. It is clearly, without large confusing words, spelled out within the FCC released NOI PDF linked to above. HDMI-CEC, DLNA, and MoCA are the forefront standards of today that will compete to "win" the AllVid FCC enforced standard. CableLabs has a device today that when paired with DCAS to eliminate the CableCard will be an AllVid device. All they need is to learn who wins this lucrative money-grab. Will it be MoCA? Will it be HDMI-CEC? Perhaps DLNA? Maybe all 3?

The AllVid device itself will not be compatible accross carriers. My "Comcast AllVid" will need returned when I drop them for DirecTV. When my contract is up, I will have to return that AllVid device when I move and order Cox. The "AllVid" device itself will be carrier specific and independant, what I WILL NOT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT, is whether my Panasonic basement TV and Onkyo A/V receiver will be 100% compatible with any AllVid device, because they will be, through FCC enforcment. (not today's TV's and A/V receivers, the one's sold AFTER AllVid is finalized, of course)

My Sony PVR-9001 bought in 2017 will work with any pay-tv carrier without losing out on service they provide. Nothing more, nothing less.

When I said 'cable-specific', I meant that cable came up with it in conjunction with SOME of the players in the CE industry.

I understand that the gateway is specific to providers, but HDMI-CEC is not the answer for delivery. That's all I'm saying.

The FCC has issued within the NOI that EITHER a gateway or per device adapter is acceptable. In the realm of "per device adapter", HDMI-CEC is an answer. It will provide a global, already acceptable to all in the industry standard to interconnect MVPD service to a retail device through an adapter without burden on either party involved. That is what AllVid is to be.

We are going backwards, in a way. We are returning to leased integrated security devices required, yet again. The difference this time is that advanced retail devices, not just "monitors", will be able to "plug and play" as well. I hope they don't screw this up with something stupid like in the past, such as Firewire required on output from the MVPD but not input on anything labelled a TV, Integration Security Ban for only a few companies instead of all, separating advanced service from basic carriage, etc...

This is all a distraction. HDMI-CEC is NOT a candidate for a media gateway. It does not allow a DVR to record the original video bits. It's worse than analog component outs, but doesn't fully empower 3rd parties to build devices with the same functionality of the MSO or DBS operator.

The FCC is not going to be fooled by this. Did you see the Boucher hearing on STB's yesterday? He is going to keep a lot of pointy sharp objects behind the FCC if they try and turn back.

And I thought it was great that NCTA liked the all-vid idea, and agreed with the congressman on a bunch of points. It should be up on the website soon if you want to watch.

I saw it. Of course the NCTA likes "AllVid", it was their idea.

Which then adds....

"Carefull! All the devils like this deal."

The "gateway" solution is one of two choices to provide AllVid, the other is a "set back box". 28 page PDF link in previous post.

AllVid will require "compatibility" with single devices, this is where a delivery medium similar to HDMI-CEC can play a role.

If AllVid has a shot at being more successfull than CableCard, it will need multiple interconnects, not only physical, but in standards. Ethernet, Coax, HDMI lead the physical connection method of today. DLNA, MoCA, HDMI-CEC lead the platform of interconnect today. I wouldn't be suprised if all 6 of these become "mandatory", plus a few others, before this is all said and done. I see DLNA is taking the lead, if the FCC chooses "one winner", it won't be good for the consumer.

Either way, this is going to cause confusion and cost in the beginning to US, not the MVPD's, not the CEA, not the FCC, and certainly not the winning organization of a "winning bid" for contract of every "television device" viewing pay-TV in the country.

You guys are hopeless. You will not let the control of the STB go no matter what will you? Well, then the Government is going to force you.

If you got with the program and cooperated, it would be better for you, and cheaper, and you'd end up the 3rd party ecosystem building awesome devices that would cause subs to leave DBS and come to you.

But no, you're going to be like Verizon and say no to the iPhone. So now you will have a solution imposed on you.

Comcast's shareholders should punish you for this attitude.

Oh, one more thing. I like this article from your mouthpiece mag:

»www.multichannel.com/art ··· lyst.php

Ah yes, DTCP-IP is a MUCH better spec.

If you are referring to me, "Government" has done this twice before with disasterous results. The "AllVid" specification has the same "hope" and start as 1996 Tele Act and the 2005 3rd order regarding DTV. The STB certainly does need to die, entrusting the government to create a retail market is something that should be scrutinized, not celebrated.

A few of the failures the FCC commited in the first attempts have been fixed: This will apply to everyone in the pay-TV market, not just 6 companies; the standard will be based on protocols that both ends have access to; the standard will be enforced on the consumer end, not the provider end.

DTCP-IP is a delivery within DLNA. DLNA is championing that they "win all" instead of being "one of many" in order to score billions in licensing fees that "we", not "them", get to pay for. If they wind up "one of many", then the regulation of the licensing fee by the FCC has a better chance of surviving in court.

AllVid still has one crucial flaw, the CEA has not stepped up and begun championing the idea. Without them, we will get to rent stripped down Motorola boxes. AllVid must attract the CEA, either through force or profiteering. Else, it will result similar to CableCard, Digital Cable Ready, change in definition of what a "Television" must be capable of, etc... all standards created by government to force the death of the STB dating back to 1994.

I have optimism we will wind up with "smarter" devices in the future because of this. I have pessimism the average consumer will give a damn or be willing to pay the premium associated with it. This is going to cost, the CEA/NCTA/FCC and others are all sharing the same understanding: they won't be the ones paying.

Surviving in court? From what Kyle said yesterday, I thought Cable would be supportive of this? Esp. since Comcast is in a merger review process right now? I know you guys are esp. loved because of that lawsuit that showed the FCC had no authority to regulate broadband.

And the congress in sec 629 of the Act required the Government to create this market, as they recognized that you guys would never let it occur on your own.

We all know how well loved the UI on all those Moto boxes is too - could that be part of the reason that Comcast scores dead last on customer sat scores?

The consumers are demanding openness in all devices these days. You should get with the program.