Topic 'Re: what a double dip recession may look like' in forum 'It Is The Economy, Stupid' - dslreports.com http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24671445 en Fri, 25 Mar 2022 11:07:41 EDT Fri, 25 Mar 2022 11:07:41 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24750495 said by aurgathor:

Seems to me you're highly inconsistent with respect to "free market" when it comes to taxes.
But you do oppose taxes, so there's a bonus point for consistency on that. ;)
There's the ideological side of me and there's the realist side of me. In some of the posts you find of mine, many of them are ideological. We all know what kind of ideology "if things were done my way" we all have. Reality is different, so I concede on many points. I understand that reduction in spending is probably too much to ask, so I simply believe that shifting that spending elsewhere would be better.

Above, it was said there were legal recourses for insane property taxes. Problem is, those legal recourses are the ones who are ensuring that the tax payers are getting the shaft.

We had one person who was for property rights and for the elimination of the property tax and he didn't make it in the primaries. Pennsylvania's governor election is coming up and we have no candidates who are interested in resolving the property tax issue.

When I speak about it, I admit that I am completely ignorant on how it is handled in any state other than Pennsylvania. In California, it sounds much more reasonable. If a person buys a home, they can know, for life, what they expect their taxes to be and prepare their retirement for it, but when the taxes double or triple every few years, you cannot prepare for it.

I am an advocate of free markets that benefit small business. The problem has been that we now live in a corporate dominated government. We've got the markets, but they are not free. We are not in a small-business-friendly environment. We've bailed out the richest people in the world, while the rest of us got shit. I'd have been happy to see these businesses who took advantage of decent people, fall to the ground and feel actual free market consequences, but they did not.

I'm going off topic, so I'll let it go.
--
'A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.' -Thomas Jefferson -]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24750495 Fri, 03 Sep 2010 08:00:05 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24749967 Many people don't care, because the bank owns their contractor built home. But for a person who bought his land and built his home over a span of half a century, pouring a foundation by hand mixing concrete and using a Clorox bottle with the bottom cut out as a scoop, to buying demolition barn lumber and spending an entire summer yanking out the nails, having hauled it all home in countless truckloads on the back of a 1948 Dodge pickup, to the decades spent building, finishing and ruining one's health... and this after being evicted from another home because of a surprise sewer assessment.
I, for one, can't take it anymore. Revaluation causes me a great deal of stress every ten years. The last time they tried to quadruple my valuation in 2000, it got so acrimonious that they sent the police here (apparently some other senior citizen had shot and killed a tax assessor in NJ a week earlier) to determine if I was going to go on a rampage and do the same as that poor slob in NJ. I firmly informed the officers and the inspector that, no, I'm not a nut job out on a vendetta, but they can bet their lunch money that I WILL use as much force as necessary to defend my property and that a number of them would not be coming home to their families after partaking in the theft of a man's home.
If a situation leaves a man with nothing left to lose, then by gum, the perpetrators of this crime are going to pay dearly by making an example and raising the cost of state-sponsored financial terrorism. I will not die freezing to death in the streets. I would rather die honorably, like the men who fought the British, fighting to defend my rights and that which I morally own.
The rest of the people who believe it is okay to steal in the name of the public good ought to be ashamed of themselves for calling themselves Americans. Government theft and murder of citizens is NOT what America was meant to be.
And to those who say move elsewhere... well *I* did in 1966, and now they're coming after me again. This time, I will not budge. It is THEY who should move to a Communist country, if income redistribution is what they want. I am in America because America was a bulwark against that. Now it is changing in the past fifty years to a corrupt, government controls all, dictatorially-inspired prison slave camp. I want no part of it. Be gone with ye' Communists. Get the hell out of MY country!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24749967 Fri, 03 Sep 2010 05:50:25 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24750237 said by Exodus:

Their income may be garbage, but they've invested heavily into their home. Now, their assessment is through the roof. Their income doesn't increase, but assessments do. Many people do not have the means to be able to afford this tax. Depending on a person's income level, property tax can exceed every other tax that person pays combined.
I did a search for your posts containing the phrase "free market" and found the following:
quote:
The free market would rise once again and step in faster than you or I could dream of.

Libertarians tend to embrace individual responsibility, oppose government bureaucracy and taxes, promote private charity, tolerate diverse lifestyles, support the free market, and defend civil liberties.
Agreed the whole way down the column.

After reading this and more information, I realize that the health care system works exactly like an economy system. In a free market, innovation and wealth is created and the median of wealth increases, as can be displayed in our country versus third world countries.

Government can't combat the cartels. The free market can.
Seems to me you're highly inconsistent with respect to "free market" when it comes to taxes.
But you do oppose taxes, so there's a bonus point for consistency on that. ;)
--
Palin 2012!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24750237 Fri, 03 Sep 2010 04:38:36 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24749215 said by Exodus:

I still don't think I'm making the point. Income tax is a tax that scales with your income. The more you make, the more you pay.
OK. Alright. I get it now.

You are not advocating zero property taxes, but "fair" property taxation. However, are you being inconsistent with respect to:
said by Exodus:

California is in the shitter for many reasons. I have no sympathy for them or any government with financial woes. Everyone else's income dropped. Everyone else lost jobs. Everyone else has to cut back. Government doesn't. Government continues to spend more than ever. Fuck them.
As you know, the voters of California passed what is known as Prop 13 back in 1978. This fixed property assessments permanently.

A large contributor to Proposition 13 was the sentiment that older Californians should not be priced out of their homes through high taxes.


As a current & longtime California property owner, my property taxes are tied to the assessment at purchase, and can only be .011% of that value. The county can reassess my house to $1 Billion, but my property taxes will always be $2200/year.

Good.

But not so good. What California legislators have done over the past 33 years is to tax damn near everything else. They taxed everything that was nailed down, and a good %tage of stuff that wasn't. Prop 13 seems like a godsend to those you describe that own their homes, yet are on fixed incomes. But the reality is now everything else they buy, including the basics like food, utilities, gas, and everything else is ridiculously expensive.

In many areas of California the sales tax alone is 10.25%. The total tax on just one gallon of gas fuel is 72 cents. California camouflages many taxes in the form of "fees". Like a fee to enter a State park, or a inflated fee to register a car, or a fee to smog a car. They also tax any driving tickets (I got one and the ticket was $60, but they added fees of $349). It cost $4/hour to park on the street anywhere downtown L.A. California has a shadow VAT. Businesses are taxed in the form of unnecessary environmental requirements, and use taxes. Thus everything that comes through the value chain is taxed, and passed on to consumers.

So what happens is, even though one can afford their property taxes, that can't afford shit else.

Hell, I couldn't. So I, like many other Californians, moved the hell out. I am not entitled to live in a State that doesn't want me.
Why don't folks in your state vote in a similar law? Cap the property taxes like Prop 13? I will tell you it doesn't matter, they will just extract the pound of flesh another way.

Furthermore, I don't blame the politicians of California at all. It's the people. Were you aware that the voters of California also made it part of the State law to spend 50% of every tax dollar collected on education? Gee, the poor children...and the rich teachers unions, and even richer education administrators...all who have tenure and can never be fired. And until very recently, the voters never met a bond initiative they didn't like...and vote for. To the tune of $84 Billion. $84 Billion worth of mostly bullshit payday loans dressed up like cures for cancer, and sold to Californians by special interest (read: the very wealthy).

See, stupid people watch TeeeVeee. Stupid people never question just who is paying $$$ millions of dollars for TeeeVeee ads to promote bonds and law changes that purport to save little bunnies and children (all they remember is the little bunnies and kids playing). Stupid people are to lazy to consider that a "bond" is nothing more than a loan with racketeer interest rates that must be paid back (that too is in the law). All stupid people do is bitch & moan, but would never be caught dead voting for a 3rd party candidate (after all, Teeeveee told them that would be a "wasted vote").

The people of California are fucking stupid. And stupid People deserve exactly what they get. And yes, this can be said for the residents of your state, and every other state as well.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24749215 Thu, 02 Sep 2010 21:55:17 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24748949 said by Exodus:

Now, they're retired, get a fixed income pension, fixed income social security, but an ever increasing property tax rate. How do you plan in advance for that?
Move to a place with a low real estate tax.

In any case, I'm not going to quote much more, but you seem to be incapable to see the principle, instead, hung up on implementation details, or perceived or real imperfections in the system. Alternatively, you may be just trying to come with various corner cases as excuses to satisfy your preconceived notions. I don't know for certain how assessors come up with valuation, but I did challenge them once, backing up my case with some evidence, and won.

So if people think their properties are overvalued, there are legal remedies for that. In any case, in my experience property taxes in general are still quite a bit lower than rent.

So, how can you be an advocate of property tax and be an advocate of the unwealthy when these are the consequences?
Say there are 2 properties, one worth $1,000,000 for a wealthy family and one worth $100,000 for a not so wealthy one. A tax rate cut of 1% cut saves 10,000 for the wealthy one vs 1,000 for the poor.

Now, if the poor family also has an $1,000,000 home, then they tried to live beyond their means.
--
Palin 2012!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24748949 Thu, 02 Sep 2010 20:52:37 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24748692 said by aurgathor:

I just hope that all you property tax opponents have expensive properties that worth a lot because it's the wealthy that would benefit from this the most.You don't know that. The property tax affects those who live in the area. In Harrisburg, PA, the majority of the homes are inner-city with a handful of "nice" homes on the outskirts. Who gets stuck with the brunt of the tax bills? The poor folks who can barely afford their homes. So, how's it going to benefit the rich if the tax load is distributed differently?

Most of the cases where people can't afford to pay taxes on their property will fall into one of two categories:
a) decrease in income -- while this may be tied to something unforeseen like outsourcing of a job, many who'll end up here bought into something that was too expensive to begin with. And retirement is something that can be planned in advance.
Most homeowners are those who spent their entire lives getting to the point where they can pay off their home and are already at retirement. They've spend many years getting to the point where they could afford a mortgage payment and then many many more years paying it off. Now, they're retired, get a fixed income pension, fixed income social security, but an ever increasing property tax rate. How do you plan in advance for that?

b) property tax went up because the valuation has skyrocketed -- in this case the owner can sell it (or part of it) and pocket a nice profit. Or make an agreement I've described on the top of this page.
Wrong. You may sound right in theory and it sounds right on paper, but in reality, this is not how this works at all. House prices have fallen almost everywhere, yet assessments continue to skyrocket. I remember listening to an AM radio station when this was discussed and caller after caller discussed the assessment nightmares they had. They all had the same story. Their assessments ended up being anywhere from 50% to 300% of their actual market value. There's no "selling for a nice profit" here.

The local government can only raise taxes a certain amount per cycle. To get around that, they've just decided to revalue everyone's homes at a much higher rate to raise taxes. It is criminal. They flat out threaten you during the appeal process by warning you via letter before the hearing that your rate can increase even higher than the assessor during the appeal process. Nobody ever got a reduction. Several were threatened with a higher increase. Many more were actually increased. It didn't matter how hard they fought it. It didn't matter if they showed up with a real estate agent, full of facts about the house and the region. It didn't matter if they had a real estate lawyer with them as well. The facts don't matter. All that matters is what the council says. That's reality.

A loss in property tax revenue is a significant contributor to CA's financial woes, BTW.
California is in the shitter for many reasons. I have no sympathy for them or any government with financial woes. Everyone else's income dropped. Everyone else lost jobs. Everyone else has to cut back. Government doesn't. Government continues to spend more than ever. Fuck them. They can tighten their belt and make the tough choices like everyone else. Start cutting the non-critical stuff. That's just the tip of the iceberg... but robbing honest citizens dry until they're pushed out of their homes so you can pay some illegal his welfare or so that your politician can take a seventh vacation for the year can NOT be justified whatsoever.

Did you also think about the educational consequences of property tax? The schools get their income from the local tax. Harrisburg is full of the poor, full of low-income ghettos. Their schools are shit. They can't afford shit. You're happy if you can get a kid to read, not get involved with drugs, not end up in prison, etc. My father has been a teacher in that district for 30+ years. Meanwhile, 15 miles over in Hershey, they have people who live in fucking mansions and their kids get Grade A education and can easily move into college. I was business partners once with the man who was the president of their school system there.

So, how can you be an advocate of property tax and be an advocate of the unwealthy when these are the consequences?
--
'A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.' -Thomas Jefferson -]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24748692 Thu, 02 Sep 2010 19:51:07 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24748616 said by dogma:

Therefore, Regardless of how a person is taxed, if they do not pay (irrespective of if they have the ability or not), the governments method of last resort to collect taxes would be to lien the property of the debtor.I still don't think I'm making the point. Income tax is a tax that scales with your income. The more you make, the more you pay. Sales tax is based upon the more you spend, the more you pay. A person who is perhaps middle-class or middle-lower class could have a strong discipline to save up for 30+ years to pay for a home, instead of buying garbage, being good about their investing, keeping good credit to keep interest low and finally paying off the house. Their income may be garbage, but they've invested heavily into their home. Now, their assessment is through the roof. Their income doesn't increase, but assessments do. Many people do not have the means to be able to afford this tax. Depending on a person's income level, property tax can exceed every other tax that person pays combined.
So again, at the end of the day, even though the man didn't owe property taxes, but owed income taxes or somesuch, he is still in jeopardy of losing his house [property] in a forced lien sale for unpaid taxes. My point is the outcome is exactly the same.
Here's where I need to make the emphasis. The man continues to pay a fee to be able to own his land. If he cannot afford it, they seize the home. With income tax, your tax is based upon what you've made. If you've withheld too little and are irresponsible with paying your taxes, the burden is on you and anything of value can and should be seized to pay off your burden. However, a tax burden that does not scale with a person's ability to pay is tyrannical.
That's a whole new can of worms IMO.

I don't think it is as simple as eliminating one form of tax and compensating by increasing another form of tax. The main issue is a consumption tax isn't compulsory, and will alter spending habits. IOW, if one doesn't want to pay any taxes, one just doesn't purchase goods/services. They may opt to barter for goods and services, since the IRS would have zero audit control of person-to-person private transactions. So the initial impact of a consumption tax will be on the net incomes of retail firms and the supply chain. I don't think this will help create jobs, but destroy even more.
Of course it is a can of worms. Of course it won't be easy. There are ways to circumvent tax laws as is. Why is it that only property owners should share the brunt of the tax burden when all people who live in the area benefit from the services provided? Raising the local income tax would mean that there would be a less of a tax burden on those who couldn't pay it, since the rich are charged a higher percentage of their income and benefit less from rebates.

The way to reduce government spending is for citizens to first abandon this tribal charade of the illusion of a 2-party system.
If you've ever read anything of mine in the other political forums, you will see that I am a very large advocate of severely limiting government spending on all levels.
--
'A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.' -Thomas Jefferson -]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24748616 Thu, 02 Sep 2010 19:35:32 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24748151
Most of the cases where people can't afford to pay taxes on their property will fall into one of two categories:
a) decrease in income -- while this may be tied to something unforeseen like outsourcing of a job, many who'll end up here bought into something that was too expensive to begin with. And retirement is something that can be planned in advance.
b) property tax went up because the valuation has skyrocketed -- in this case the owner can sell it (or part of it) and pocket a nice profit. Or make an agreement I've described on the top of this page.

A loss in property tax revenue is a significant contributor to CA's financial woes, BTW.
--
Palin 2012!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24748151 Thu, 02 Sep 2010 17:43:22 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24747674 said by Exodus:

Separate issue... and I believe because you brought this up, you're missing the point entirely. An income tax is a tax on income that you've earned that Uncle Sam takes his share first. If you fail to pay, then yeah, seize your assets, put liens, whatever.
I think I am being responsive to the point. Perhaps I am not articulating my response well.

To be clear, I am assuming the prime issue with a tax on personal property is:
said by Exodus:

The man doesn't earn a living and doesn't have cash. How does he pay property tax then? Also, what happens when he doesn't pay property tax? He'll lose his house. What kind of shit is that where you cannot truly own something? That's my biggest gripe.
Therefore, Regardless of how a person is taxed, if they do not pay (irrespective of if they have the ability or not), the governments method of last resort to collect taxes would be to lien the property of the debtor.

So again, at the end of the day, even though the man didn't owe property taxes, but owed income taxes or somesuch, he is still in jeopardy of losing his house [property] in a forced lien sale for unpaid taxes. My point is the outcome is exactly the same.
said by MrMoody:

Of course, and it's not like this is something new and radical, it's already being done. And no need to take people's property to collect it. Like Archivis, I'd have no problem with them eliminating the property tax and raising the sales tax the same amount.
That's a whole new can of worms IMO.

I don't think it is as simple as eliminating one form of tax and compensating by increasing another form of tax. The main issue is a consumption tax isn't compulsory, and will alter spending habits. IOW, if one doesn't want to pay any taxes, one just doesn't purchase goods/services. They may opt to barter for goods and services, since the IRS would have zero audit control of person-to-person private transactions. So the initial impact of a consumption tax will be on the net incomes of retail firms and the supply chain. I don't think this will help create jobs, but destroy even more.

Severe retail losses will lead to a rapid downward shift in demand curves, backward to land and labor, i.e., to wage rates and ground rents. Hence, instead of the retail sales tax being quickly and painlessly shifted forward, it will, in a longer-run, be painfully shifted backward to the incomes of labor and landowners.


My position is we don't need any solution that drastic. That, I think, is a throw the baby out with the bathwater--be careful what you wish for--unintended consequences ordeal.

The way to reduce government spending is for citizens to first abandon this tribal charade of the illusion of a 2-party system. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24747674 Thu, 02 Sep 2010 16:14:07 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24747289 said by dogma:

Are you are describing a consumption tax, or perhaps a VAT? Where the business selling the product or service collect the tax for the government and send it in. Of course, and it's not like this is something new and radical, it's already being done. And no need to take people's property to collect it. Like Archivis, I'd have no problem with them eliminating the property tax and raising the sales tax the same amount.
--
Real estate taxes are a violation of property rights.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24747289 Thu, 02 Sep 2010 14:51:49 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24746842 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24746842 Thu, 02 Sep 2010 13:25:45 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24746731 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24746731 Thu, 02 Sep 2010 13:08:27 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24746663 said by dogma:

At the end of the day there is no alternative. If the society has any taxes whatsoever, and every advanced society does, there must be some teeth in tax collection.There are alternatives. We're taxed every which way from other sources. Increase the sales tax. Increase the income tax.

If, for example, there were no property taxes and some other form of taxes, how does the government collect from those unwilling to pay their share? Unpaid taxes of any kind wind up as tax liens on real property. And ultimately, those liens are collected on via forced sale of the property.
Separate issue... and I believe because you brought this up, you're missing the point entirely. An income tax is a tax on income that you've earned that Uncle Sam takes his share first. If you fail to pay, then yeah, seize your assets, put liens, whatever. But property taxes do not scale with that. You lose your income, you generally pay less tax. Not with property tax. They expect you to pay up, even if the tax is more than your income.

And as I have argued before, the lunacy of no taxes, or "À la carte" taxes, where each individual decides which things they should be taxed on is a pipe dream. At the core is the common enforcement of laws, including property rights.
Nobody is advocating no taxes. I'm advocating a shift of taxes to already implemented sources.

A better approach is simply to reduce the reach and expenditures of government, thus lowering the overall revenue requirement. However there are many that mistakenly believe our government is somehow "disconnected" from the citizenry. That the government (Federal/State/local/municipal/community) is some unattached entity that works in a unilateral fashion.
Yeah, sure. Politicians are going to lower taxes. I believe it.
--
'A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.' -Thomas Jefferson -]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24746663 Thu, 02 Sep 2010 12:57:17 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24746606 said by dogma:

If, for example, there were no property taxes and some other form of taxes, how does the government collect from those unwilling to pay their share? Unpaid taxes of any kind wind up as tax liens on real property. I don't see them having any problem collecting sales taxes, fuel taxes, utility taxes etc or having to file liens to get them.
--
Real estate taxes are a violation of property rights.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24746606 Thu, 02 Sep 2010 12:48:00 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24746581 said by Exodus:

It is criminal. It is immoral. It is absolutely the worst thing that this country has, because if you don't pay the taxes, you lose your home.
At the end of the day there is no alternative. If the society has any taxes whatsoever, and every advanced society does, there must be some teeth in tax collection.

If, for example, there were no property taxes and some other form of taxes, how does the government collect from those unwilling to pay their share? Unpaid taxes of any kind wind up as tax liens on real property. And ultimately, those liens are collected on via forced sale of the property.

And as I have argued before, the lunacy of no taxes, or "À la carte" taxes, where each individual decides which things they should be taxed on is a pipe dream. At the core is the common enforcement of laws, including property rights.

A better approach is simply to reduce the reach and expenditures of government, thus lowering the overall revenue requirement. However there are many that mistakenly believe our government is somehow "disconnected" from the citizenry. That the government (Federal/State/local/municipal/community) is some unattached entity that works in a unilateral fashion.

It's not. It's exactly what the majority of the people want. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24746581 Thu, 02 Sep 2010 12:42:28 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24745234 said by aurgathor:

Property tax is actually one of the simpler one, and it usually goes to the city or county.

For example, Imaginationville has a yearly budget of $2 million, there are 1000 houses there, each valued $100,000, and to meet the budget, they city needs $2,000 in taxes after each house, plain and simple. If Joe Stingy wants to pay less taxes, he should talk to the owners of the other 999 properties that some of the spending is not needed, or can be decreased.

And if Mr BigMoney builds a big mansion that is now valued at $1,000,000, it's not unfair to raise the tax on his property accordingly.

So if people want to cut their property taxes, first they need to cut the budget, which usually means cutting services that the localities provide. It doesn't matter if you worked hard to pay off everything, the property is still mortgaged, or all of it was just won on the lottery. You need to pay based on its assessed value, regardless of your previous history.

Note, many municipalities allow seniors to pay less taxes in lieu of a lien that need to be paid off after their death.
What happens to an individual that found a way to live entirely off of his land? He has his own well for water. Maybe he doesn't use electricity or utilities. He takes care of the road that leads up to his house, his own sewage, etc. The man doesn't earn a living and doesn't have cash. How does he pay property tax then? Also, what happens when he doesn't pay property tax? He'll lose his house. What kind of shit is that where you cannot truly own something? That's my biggest gripe.

In Pennsylvania, the assessors are assessing the value of properties upwards of 2-3 times what the actual value is. Home prices have fallen drastically over the past few years. Everyone knows that. Pennsylvania is no different, yet housing assessments continue to go up. Don't bother trying to fight it. They specifically make examples out of people by informing them in a letter before they appeal that during the appeal process, their assessed value can actually increase. It doesn't matter if you show up with a lawyer and a well-known real-estate agent, they will reassess you at an even higher rate.

It is criminal. It is immoral. It is absolutely the worst thing that this country has, because if you don't pay the taxes, you lose your home.

We don't have to get into getting rid of the taxes. They just need to shift to something else. Shift it to a higher municipal income tax, or an increase in state sales tax, but you shouldn't be able to take a man's property away from him because you can't pay the taxes.
--
'A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.' -Thomas Jefferson -]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24745234 Thu, 02 Sep 2010 07:58:17 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24744912 In fact, the idea of home ownership is now and out and out fraud because taxation demonstrates that there is nothing but rental from the fiefdom known as government.
Property tax is a tax on a non-producing asset. Unlike an income tax, it doesn't scale based on ability to pay. It's like taxing the air we breathe and knowing that we have no choice but pay or die when they cut off our air supply.
The property tax is legalized slavery. Any time you have to do labor for the government, that is forced labor, it is slavery. Some argue it is voluntary, but so it is also voluntary to die. In the context of living life proper to man, a man has a full right to the efforts of his labor. The property tax negates that.

For those that feel we need all these nanny state services, I disagree. Public 'education' is little more than indoctrination. Public schools destroy minds and mold children into good socialists that will support government. It's a highly motivated self preservational cycle. They can't teach kids to think, else they would discover the Emperor has no clothes.
Much of the infrastructure only exists so that people can commute longer distances and earn more TAXABLE income, which supports the federal government's numerous escapades all over the world.
Once a government has the power to tax, the citizens become slaves and the servant becomes the tyrant.
The government's only proper role is the three moral functions I outlined earlier. All else leads to tyranny. Too many people discovered they could vote themselves a handout and today's America is the result. None of this mess would have happened if government were restrained to those three functions. Everything else can be done privately and much more efficiently.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24744912 Thu, 02 Sep 2010 03:37:46 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24744583
For example, Imaginationville has a yearly budget of $2 million, there are 1000 houses there, each valued $100,000, and to meet the budget, they city needs $2,000 in taxes after each house, plain and simple. If Joe Stingy wants to pay less taxes, he should talk to the owners of the other 999 properties that some of the spending is not needed, or can be decreased.

And if Mr BigMoney builds a big mansion that is now valued at $1,000,000, it's not unfair to raise the tax on his property accordingly.

So if people want to cut their property taxes, first they need to cut the budget, which usually means cutting services that the localities provide. It doesn't matter if you worked hard to pay off everything, the property is still mortgaged, or all of it was just won on the lottery. You need to pay based on its assessed value, regardless of your previous history.

Note, many municipalities allow seniors to pay less taxes in lieu of a lien that need to be paid off after their death.
--
Palin 2012!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24744583 Thu, 02 Sep 2010 00:20:02 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24743863 said by Exodus:

Hell, most Americans don't even pay taxes. An utterly ridiculous statement, generalized from a meme that's only barely true.
--
Real estate taxes are a violation of property rights.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24743863 Wed, 01 Sep 2010 21:47:25 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24743670 said by aurgathor:

Since you brought it up, I have a feeling you guys are either heavily indoctrinated, or simply can't see the other side of the coin.
You're right. Everyone talks about not wanting to be taxed, but nobody wants to give up the stuff government provides from them. You want less taxes? Ok, say good bye to SS, Medicare, etc and we can drop your taxes.

Hell, most Americans don't even pay taxes.

Honestly, I'd rather just see property tax shifted to something else. There are some people who worked hard to pay off everything they've owned and live off of a very minimal income. They don't have a lot of bills and zero debt and can live somewhat off the land, but they can't afford the property tax annually on their budget.

Property tax is probably the #1 thing on my list I wish to see gone. I don't care what you shift the tax to.
--
'A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.' -Thomas Jefferson -]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24743670 Wed, 01 Sep 2010 20:17:27 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24743532
Since you brought it up, I have a feeling you guys are either heavily indoctrinated, or simply can't see the other side of the coin.
--
Palin 2012!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24743532 Wed, 01 Sep 2010 19:49:13 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24743211
I will fight for these things to change, until then people will continue to be sheep.
--
Do or do not, there is no try! - Yoda]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24743211 Wed, 01 Sep 2010 18:50:39 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24739464
1. To protect our borders from foreign attack
2. To protect individuals from initiation of force or fraud by other individuals
3. To provide courts to adjudicate differences among parties within the nation.

Until we get government down to size, yes, the economy will remain unsustainable.
A free economy is amazingly versatile and productive.

However, there are too many people who are Altruists who believe everyone owes a 'debt to society', hence, we are doomed to the steady downfall into Agentinian-style collapse with anarchy and corruption of a banana republic. Yes, it's coming, because Congress isn't hearing the bell tolling for it. The young are indoctrinated by the public schools to be good taxpayers, and most folks are too lazy to take responsibility for themselves.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24739464 Wed, 01 Sep 2010 00:42:50 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24736975 said by aurgathor:

The fact that "Great Recession" is probably the most common 2 words term to describe the state of the economy should tell you something. And the government admits that, too.Just a reminder that when it was pointed out that the King had no clothes, the procession continues...
quote:
“Does it please your Majesty now to graciously undress,” said the swindlers, “that we may assist your Majesty in putting on the new suit before the large looking-glass?”

The emperor undressed, and the swindlers pretended to put the new suit upon him, one piece after another; and the emperor looked at himself in the glass from every side.

“How well they look! How well they fit!” said all. “What a beautiful pattern! What fine colours! That is a magnificent suit of clothes!”

The master of the ceremonies announced that the bearers of the canopy, which was to be carried in the procession, were ready.

“I am ready,” said the emperor. “Does not my suit fit me marvellously?” Then he turned once more to the looking-glass, that people should think he admired his garments.

The chamberlains, who were to carry the train, stretched their hands to the ground as if they lifted up a train, and pretended to hold something in their hands; they did not like people to know that they could not see anything.

The emperor marched in the procession under the beautiful canopy, and all who saw him in the street and out of the windows exclaimed: “Indeed, the emperor’s new suit is incomparable! What a long train he has! How well it fits him!” Nobody wished to let others know he saw nothing, for then he would have been unfit for his office or too stupid. Never emperor’s clothes were more admired.

“But he has nothing on at all,” said a little child at last. “Good heavens! listen to the voice of an innocent child,” said the father, and one whispered to the other what the child had said. “But he has nothing on at all,” cried at last the whole people. That made a deep impression upon the emperor, for it seemed to him that they were right; but he thought to himself, “Now I must bear up to the end.” And the chamberlains walked with still greater dignity, as if they carried the train which did not exist.

»hca.gilead.org.il/emperor.html
--
The Truth is the foremost enemy of the State now.
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24736975 Tue, 31 Aug 2010 14:30:07 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24736896 said by nonymous:

The economy is sunk just nobody dares admit it. What are you talking about?!?

The fact that "Great Recession" is probably the most common 2 words term to describe the state of the economy should tell you something. And the governmemt admits that, too.
--
Palin 2012!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24736896 Tue, 31 Aug 2010 14:13:11 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24736452 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24736452 Tue, 31 Aug 2010 12:37:49 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24736287 said by redxii:

Can't you grow the GDP just by printing money? Maybe, maybe not, but you sure as hell can by borrowing it and then spending it. And the feds have, and it exceeds the size of the "hump" between the "double dips."
--
Real estate taxes are a violation of property rights.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24736287 Tue, 31 Aug 2010 12:04:50 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24709401 The retied generation for some part is self centered and thinks they deserve. They are quickly eating up what is left from the good times. The young ones may be left with nothing. Unless it is their kid they do not care. So long as they can still get their kid a job at their ex employer they are happy.
Or they think it will quickly pass as they have never observed a real downturn. Sure minor recessions but this to them is just another small glitch waiting to rebound even bigger.
Maybe it is because I am a pessimist but this is way worse than anyone is saying.
In AZ the governor will probably be easily reelected on 1070. The economy is great only 9% unemployment. Still the predictions are it is closer to 20% if it was calculated correctly but why would we want to do that.
if you are unemployed it is either because of illegals or you are lazy. The economy is starting to recover nicely thanks is the whitewash drivel you hear at times. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24709401 Wed, 25 Aug 2010 02:06:51 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24702423
There are many things that are 'untouchable' today, but if the economy sinks further, that may not be the case tomorrow, or after tomorrow.
--
Palin 2012!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24702423 Mon, 23 Aug 2010 18:42:29 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24702252
The socio-economic consequence of population aging and declining fertility has been a change in the role of “those who support” and “those who are supported.” This is illustrated by the change in the dependency ratio of the working-age population to the retired-age population (the population of those aged 15 to 64 divided by the population of those aged 65 or older). The dependency ratio was relatively high before World War II, but began to decline after the war and reached its lowest point (43.5) in 1990. Then the ratio began to increase again and has continued to do so up until the present day. Before 1990, the ratio increased as a result of the decreasing child population (those under the age of 15); however, after 1990, it was due to the increasing elderly population (those above the age of 65)...in Japan

Of course I am referencing my now-obsession with the Japanese economic model. To me, it is no coincidence that Japan's current 20-year prolonged recession coincided with it's population dependency ratio going negative (as explained above) in 1990. I am just having a hard time getting around some very obvious equations:

• When the birth rate is flat or declining, and
• When the elderly (non-working) population is growing, and
• When the nation does not export more products/services than it imports:

Where do the new consumers come from that drive economic growth?
Where does the new revenue [read: growth] come from?
Who pays for the older (and ever increasing), non-productive members of society that sap economic growth?

Here is a real world example.
My mother is a retired 42-year educator. Her retirement is funded by CalPERS, a gargantuan State employee pension fund once valued at a over quarter of a $ Trillion.

Now, the taxpayers of the State of California, wait a minute, the Broke State of California, must cough up an additional $3 Billion to basically prop up this fund this year.

The contribution rates set by the board of CalPERS, and other public employee pension systems in California, are protected by law and cannot be cut by elected officials trying to balance state and local government budgets.


IOW, more people are retiring, and these same people are living longer, and the State has committed to paying these people not to work. The State of California can not afford to pay 2 people -- one retired, and the other teaching -- for the work of one. It's unsustainable. Didn't GM teach us that?

And it's not just retired people, its a diminishing taxpayer base as well. Less people mean less tax revenue. It's an immutable number equation; How can the economy possibly grow under these conditions?

Jeesh! Talk about the 800-pound pink gorilla in the room everybody wants desperately to ignore.

»calpensions.com/2009/05/ ··· million/

»www.businessinsider.com/ ··· n-2010-6]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24702252 Mon, 23 Aug 2010 18:02:59 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24701929 --
Palin 2012!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24701929 Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:53:22 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24701885 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24701885 Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:44:40 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24701501 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24701501 Mon, 23 Aug 2010 15:25:09 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24701261 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24701261 Mon, 23 Aug 2010 14:38:54 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24701234 The growth rate may be slower for quite a while, however.
--
Palin 2012!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24701234 Mon, 23 Aug 2010 14:34:59 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24685616
History, repeating itself over and over again. By the way, I love reading your opinions, because I agree with everything you say. I really do. :)
--
Do or do not, there is no try! - Yoda]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24685616 Thu, 19 Aug 2010 17:18:47 EDT Re: what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24671856
Try Lost Generation(s); A complete and permanent paradigm shift in how we view economic progress as a societal processes. Because we may be flat lining.

Try as I may, I can't figure out how we can ever return to what we would perceive as a normal economy. The economic components and business dynamics for that are simply not there. Flat population growth means no justification for new construction, no new factories, no new anything. Moreover, there is very little we can produce for export that other nations can't do cheaper or better, ... or both.

At least Japan is still an export powerhouse and has a trade surplus. But, they have adapted ... to a degree. The younger generation, excluding first born males, assume they will NEVER own a home. They assume they will NEVER retire. 1/3 assume they will never marry or have children as they assume they will never be able to afford it. Over 33% of today's Japaneses work force are currently permanently part-time.

Instead of saying "what a double dip recession may look like", perhaps we need to begin exploring "what a permanent recession may look like?"

So the only reasonable option is to get busy adapting to our new standard of living. It's not a lower standard of living, it's a different standard of living. Here are some examples that come to mind:

The new ostentatious auto, one of the trappings of success we have grown used to in the past 60 years, will now be the paid off mortgage on the free and clear home. And it won't matter what size, neighborhood, or part of the country it's in. A paid off home is a performing asset.

In the new economy, generating ones own energy will be the rule, not the exception. In the new economy, barter of 2nd hand goods will be the norm. Should we get used to these new status symbols, or should we continue to believe the "up" is just across that last, next economic indicator.

Here is that link from my post 2 years ago:
»www.timesonline.co.uk/to ··· 8096.ece
Click for full size
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24671856 Mon, 16 Aug 2010 22:06:49 EDT what a double dip recession may look like http://www.dslreports.com/forum/what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24671445 »finance.yahoo.com/career ··· ook-like
--
Palin 2012!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/what-a-double-dip-recession-may-look-like-24671445 Mon, 16 Aug 2010 20:21:38 EDT