VOIP Tech Chat → CNAM - Who Can Update the Official Database

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HERE's one for the geeks around here !

My problem was discovered by accident when I was poking around in the CallWithUs user portal and found a PAY function called 'North American Number Lookup'.

Not sure exactly what to expect, I tried it, on mine and a few other numbers about which I was curious.

It WAS NOT FREE to do this (no gripe, just letting everyone know), and the result screens proved to be VERRRRY INTERESTING !

The below thread (found by Google) is 3 years old and touches somewhat on my question, but I need fresh info and opinions please.

»VoIP and outbound CNAM problems: Gripes in the pipes.

ANYWAY, as my current thread title asks, I wish to determine who has the authority and technological interface (and is self-aware and willing) to make changes to the CNAM record for a phone number.

Now I realize that some VoIPPs like CWU and VMS will let me set which phone NUMBER that I would broadcast as CID on outbound calls, and this relates indirectly to my question, as the phone provider of the party receiving my calls would then look up the required CNAM based on the number which I had broadcast, as my portal setting for the number would override anything else which was intended for the common CID shown to the recipient, correct ?

Now back to the INTERESTING part.

One of the two phone numbers which are mine is currently on a cellular account, and has been ported twice from an original Bell Canada landline NXX to get there, and the intermediate provider was also a cell company.

The problem is that nobody questioned nor changed nor even offered to change the listing on either porting occasion, even though on both occasions I made their reps aware that the number had belonged to my late father, and I therefive had specifically asked them whether HIS name being associated with it (and showing even in the white pages phone book listing) would hinder the porting in of the number to my account.

Both times, the port went fine from a basic functional perspective, but to this day, if I open the local Bell phone book or look up the number or his name online at Canada 411_ca, the old listing persists (including his now invalid street address), and I wish to fix that somehow.

The CallWithUs user portal's PAY function called 'North American Number Lookup' also presents my father's name as 'CNAM'.

Reps of my current cell provider who has that number on an active account act as if I have THREE HEADS when I ask the question, and state that my outbound CID is set how I told them to set it, which is also true, but the problem which described still lives on.

The do not seem to know the difference between CID and CNAM.

So please, WHO do I contact to rectify this ?!

[I realize that the number in question is not currently on a VoIP account, but it or another number originally from the same ILEC and NXX, and which also has similar types of errors in its CNAM listing, has been slated to be ported soon to VoIP when I made the discoveries which I have described here, and I am hoping to solve the problem BEFORE this next port request is set in motion, just in case the issue would interfere with the success of the porting, which on THIS occasion is NOT FREE.

And since every VoIPP with which I have investigated porting has been so picky that my address etc must match for ports to be allowed, I want to get all of my ducks in a row before following through. ]

The only one who can rectify your issue is your current provider. With the phone book, obviously updates will not be effective until the next book is printed. Canada411 and directory assistance should be updated within a couple of months (worse-case) of when the directory update is processed.

The third party CNAM databases out there will usually update within six months of the directory update being processed, although some might not until after the next phone book has been published.

I think you're about to discover that nobody knows how to help you. The only company that can change your directory listing, in Canada, is your current provider.

Please note this has nothing to do with CNAM or Caller ID. It's strictly your "directory listing" and things trickle down from there.

The address just needs to match your the address on your invoices. It doesn't matter what your directory listings say.

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So are you saying that the folks who think I have the three heads have to fix this ?

And do you mean that it is normal proceedure that the CNAM is derived from the phone book listing, rather than the opposite ?

Yes, sadly they are the only entity that has control over your listing.

When you call landlines, I understand that the correct (or no) CNAM shows up? It's when you call VoIP numbers that you see your father's name?

If I followed you, then yes, the VoIP providers you're testing with are querying third party CNAM databases which often collect their data from the phone book listings.

In no case is a phone book listing derived from a CNAM record. They are transmitted and stored in a completely separate manner.

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THAT part is reassuring, explains why my other ports succeeded, and why the next ones still could.

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I THINK I get that.

So what would the CNAM listing show for deliberately unlisted numbers, or for numbers issued by cell providers, where a white page listing is generally a paid option ?

BTW, have you or anyone else tested the lookup which CWU offers ?

That lookup's result screen (presented in one field labelled 'CNAM'), and the white pages listings, are where my father's name shows, even though he passed in 2007, and I have ported his number twice since then.

I have not observed what recipients see on their CID as I have not yet called out with that number after the latest port. - Reasons for that involve $$ and will be resolved after I port out the OTHER number (which I briefly mentioned in my OP) from that same current provider (Rogers), at which time they have agreed to move the funds from the losing number's account over to the new account of my father's old number, which is now registered to a brand new SIM card, which itself is not going back into my cell phone until all of that is completed.

Google? That's MY thread!

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And here is what the owner of CallWithUs said in July about the lookup service that they offer (which is a good service):»CNAME lookup

And as Trev or Mango can tell you much better than I can:

In Canada, especially eastern Canada, when you make a call your provider is generally transmitting both CNAM and numeric CID, and the provider at the destination will generally use that data. In other words, the recipient's provider does NOT have to dip into a CNAM database using the numeric CID, they already know the CNAM.

But in some Canadian situations, it does not work that way. It works by the American method instead, in which the recipient's provider MUST do a CNAM database dip to obtain the CNAM.

This article is a couple years old, but also touches on CID and some of the Canadian quirks:

»www.ainslie.org.uk/calle ··· _faq.htm

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That article discusses STENTOR....

STENTOR, refers to:

a) A Greek guy who shouted loudly, hence the word stentorian.

b) A defunct Canadian consortium of major phone companies.

Now, in AD 293, the Roman Emperor Diocletian declared the Drina River to be the boundary between the eastern and western parts of the Empire.

To the west, ended up Roman Catholic.

To the east, ended up Eastern Orthodox.

And so on with different languages, even different alphabets.

It STILL affects us today.

This is why Yugoslavia's breakup was so violent. The river is the divide between Bosnia and Serbia, for example.

So:

The SAME is true in Canadian telephony.

Many technical differences depend on whether the provider was a member or non-member of the STENTOR consortium.

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And YOU were the person doing the head scratching that time. .
Yes, I ran across that one while examining CWU's reviews last month, just before giving them a try, but I was not concentrating on the CNAM issue at the time.

Then I got caught up in the toll-free number functionality threads, which led me to the CNAM stuff a 2nd time, and after that, my OP of the current thread, over a discovery which led me there a 3rd time.

So could we say "A rose is a rose, by any other CNAM." ?

[Sorry, I just HAD to....]

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And as the B#ELL companies were the largest member, their groundwork drives much of what still happens up here.

Stentor was comprised mostly of regional ILECs and not so much (if any) CLECs, IIRC, and was designed to be a way to standardize operations across Canada, without each company expanding their respective territory to achieve that.

Until it fell apart because SOME (mostly newer to telecom) companies wanted REAL competition (or at least alleged that they did).

I'm happy to report that the West is seeing a consistently higher number of calls every month that include the name, thus no need to do a CNAM dip.

I think can be attributed to Shaw's success as an alternate "land line" service provider, as Shaw provides the name with the call.

Interesting information in that thread.

I also want to confirm that VoIP.ms current behavior regarding incoming calls on Canadian Numbers is to not "dip" the CNAM DB when we receive the name. I'm not 100% sure if this is documented but what I can confirm is that even if you have CNAM Lookups enabled, you won't get charged for a CNAM Lookup if the name was received on a call.

I also can confirm Trev's information regarding Directory listing, that's the way to update CNAM Info for Canadian numbers.

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Let me paraphrase what I think you just said, just so that I'm sure I have it straight.

1) DIPs for CNAM are NOT performed if a CNAM is received along with the number of an incoming call, regardless of whether or not the user has subscribed to DIPPING in the VOIP.MS portal. - They are only performed (and billed) if necessary, and that would only be if a number but NO CNAM is received along with an incoming call, right ?

The only possible down side to that policy would be if an incorrect CNAM was received with a call, THAT's what the call recipient would see.

2) To get a CNAM record to change in Canada, somebody MUST make a change to the phone directory listing for that number, in other words the WHITE PAGE listing for that number, yes ?

Are also saying that a phone provider must do such updates on behalf of the subscriber, or is there a direct way for the subscriber to directly make this happen ?

It's late, don't be hard on me.

Point 1 is correct.

Point 2 is correct as well for Canada. Directory listing will get your CNAM to be properly inserted in the database after some time. If there's an easier solution to this, I'm not aware and I"m sorry if I'm wrong but as far as I know, that's the only way. For example, my father never been in a VoIP customer, and if I do a CNAM Request on his number, I will get the same name shown in the white pages. (e.g: SMITH J)

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Thank You.

Point 2 was the original reason for this thread, as my father's old number's original Bell landline listing seems to have continued because nobody did anything to change it (neither me nor the 2 cell providers to whom I have ported the number since then), and so I have been researching how to either erase the phone book listing (same as most NEW cell and VoIP numbers usually are by default - and which Bell landline department would call 'Unlisted') or to change it to MY name.

Unfortunately, I first had the impression (from somewhere) that I would need to be changing the CNAM to get the phone directory listing to change, whereas I have later been receiving advice that the exact opposite politics is true, both from you and from others here.