Topic 'Re: And I care because..... ???' in forum '' - dslreports.com http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-And-I-care-because-27377264 en Sat, 26 Mar 2022 13:52:26 EDT Sat, 26 Mar 2022 13:52:26 EDT Re: And I care because..... ??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-And-I-care-because-27385714
However, I think we disagree as to what constitutes "theft," and on the concept of privacy. I don't at all believe that privacy is an illusion, it's a very real, tangible thing. It's just becoming harder to come by. And before the industrial age, I believe there was actually a lot MORE privacy, not less.

Suppose a male from tribe A is meeting a female from tribe B in the woods periodically. While it might take some effort to keep that a secret, it could be done. Back then, all you really had to do was make sure no one from your tribe or the other tribe saw you meet.

Today, you have GPS trackers in the car and the phone that you can't turn off, timestamps on your home security alarm, etc. You couldn't keep this type of meeting a secret even if you tried. All you can do is HOPE that some corporation doesn't go digging.

I think another part of the problem is that a lot of people tend to assume that where there's a secret, there's illegality, immorality, perversion, or some other impropriety. In the example above, what did you think that male/tribeA and female/tribeB were meeting in the woods for? Maybe they're doing exactly what you think. But maybe not. What if each tribe's leader has forbidden contact with the other tribe because of a 20-year old longstanding feud between the leaders, and the two people are meeting in secret so they don't find out? And all they're doing is trading cloth for rice?

Do you see how even completely legitimate things that violate no law and infringe no moral sometimes still need to be kept secret? I vehemently object to the notion that a secret implies guilt. IT DOES NOT.

And yes, I do believe that privacy is a God-given right. That concept was accepted by the founding fathers of the United States, and a protection against government infringement of that right is indirectly in our Constitution via the First, Fourth, and Fourteenth amendments.

By the way, my personal bank and investment bank called me solely for fraud prevention. The credit card company initially called me for fraud prevention, and then also offered me a cash back card. *SIGH*.

Did you ever read Orwell's 1984? If the rights and privacy of the people are stripped away, does it really matter if the perpetrator of that is the government or the corporations? Isn't the net effect the same? I find it extremely hypocritical that most conservatives are vehemently opposed to government influence and interference in people's lives, yet have no problem allowing corporations to do the same thing.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-And-I-care-because-27385714 Wed, 01 Aug 2012 19:38:23 EDT Re: And I care because..... ??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-And-I-care-because-27384917 said by fritz43:

Exactly right - you just don't get it. They are NOT just ads. They represent a trend/movement/philosophy which needs to get stomped on - hard and immediately.

Well I'd say you are committing the logic error of assuming the conclusion. WHY does such hard and immediate action need to be taken? What bad thing is happening here?

The reality of the situation is that, unless you are "off the grid" completely, there is tons of information flowing from you every day, and economics dictate that that information will be aggregated and exploited to make money. Stopping this is like trying to stop water from flowing downstream. It can be done, but at great cost.

And, this is not new to the Internet, PCs, and smartphones. Information aggregation and exploitation for marketing reasons has been around for as long as there have been people and companies selling products. Now that the Internet is involved, suddenly you scream, "No! The Internet must be eternally anonymous, private, and stateless! NO TRACKING ALLOWED EVER!" well, no. the Internet is not a magic place where everything is different.

"They are NOT just ads"... well if not that's 99.9% of it. It's all about targeted messaging. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-And-I-care-because-27384917 Wed, 01 Aug 2012 15:58:20 EDT Re: And I care because..... ??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-And-I-care-because-27384885
I am curious *why* the bank/investment bank/credit card company called you. Was it fraud prevention, or sales?

You took the time to give a really clear description of your belief system, exactly what i was looking for. Thanks.

Personally I am of the school that believes that privacy is an illusion -- and that that's not a bad thing. You probably find my belief system just as alien as I find yours.

Before the industrial age (which is actually most of human history) there literally was no privacy. Every member of the tribe knew what every other member of the tribe was up to. And they accepted this as completely normal. In fact if people tried to hide things or keep secrets that was considered bad, and evidence that they were most likely doing bad things.

Somehow we've gotten around to the exact opposite... that privacy is some kind of basic human right, to the extent that (for example) multiple people who saw bizarre behavior in James Holmes in Colorado did nothing about it for fear of invading his privacy. And then he committed mass murder.

I totally agree that fraud and theft is a problem on the Internet. But I have seen zero examples of that being caused by tracking done by legitimate companies (as opposed to malware that is TRYING to steal your stuff).

To my way of thinking, the best defense against fraud is to simply check your accounts frequently (I do it daily) to see if anything unusual is happening. And of course take normal precautions against malware and data leakage, such as encryption, firewalls, virus protection, strong passwords, and access controls on your data in the cloud. Rather than trying to cover up and eliminate all the sources of information flowing out, simply make sure that none of them rebound to hurt you. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-And-I-care-because-27384885 Wed, 01 Aug 2012 15:48:44 EDT Re: And I care because..... ??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-And-I-care-because-27382569 --
Help stamp out hate; and haters.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-And-I-care-because-27382569 Tue, 31 Jul 2012 22:40:40 EDT Re: And I care because..... ??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-And-I-care-because-27381804
I'll give you an example. Recently, I had a lot of savings built up in my bank account, so I logged on to my bank's web site and moved a rather large sum over to my investment bank so that I could put it into some investments. Within an hour of that transfer, I got calls from my bank, the investment bank, and one of my credit card companies asking about this transfer.

That gives me the heebie-jeebies. To me, these people have absolutely no right to know that I moved this money or why. Yet somehow, some alarms went off everywhere, and now 47 customer service agents all know what I'm doing with my money.

When it comes down to it, I personally believe that all humans are inherently evil. They will always attempt to take advantage of others for their own benefit. Having extra information available to them not only benefits this inherent attitude but incentivizes wrongdoing. Under a no-knowledge situation, hardly anyone would give any thought to stealing something from me, except now that they know exactly what's behind door number 1, they want to open it.

It's my God-given right to have secrets, and I object to companies that try everything they can to learn my secrets such that they can benefit from them. It's disrespectful and arrogant.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-And-I-care-because-27381804 Tue, 31 Jul 2012 18:16:07 EDT Re: And I care because..... ??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-And-I-care-because-27379366 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-And-I-care-because-27379366 Tue, 31 Jul 2012 03:51:21 EDT Re: And I care because..... ??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-And-I-care-because-27379364
Have there been confirmed reports of criminals paying for tracking data to figure out who's not at home? I kind of doubt that one. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-And-I-care-because-27379364 Tue, 31 Jul 2012 03:49:33 EDT Re: And I care because..... ??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-And-I-care-because-27378740
I believe that my personal data, like what I like to buy and what interests I have should not be public knowledge. If I like to collect wristwatches, I don't want any retailer out there to know that. So I will use every means at my disposal to prevent those companies from finding that out. Not because it's "wrong" or "un-American", etc. No, it's because that's what I want to do.

My prerogative.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-And-I-care-because-27378740 Mon, 30 Jul 2012 21:03:33 EDT Re: And I care because..... ??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-And-I-care-because-27377481
You see an ad in a magazine, paper. You see an ad on TV, sure. You see an ad on a signpost on the street. In all those cases (except, possibly, for the TV: The cable company knows what channel you're watching, of course) they don't specifically identify YOU.

The holy grail of advertisers is to follow your every move, watch your every blink, and know exactly what you've seen. They want to see every bill you've paid, they want to know what you think. The idea: Maximum profits by showing you the ads/news/stories that will get you to $pend money.

But these people with the ad trackers aren't the end users. The end users pay the tracking people for the information. And, lookie: who's in the queue? Oh, look, it's the State! And people who want to be elected! And criminals who want to scam you or just figure out when you're not likely to be at home.

You want privacy? That's against their religion of Free Markets. And, of course, in the way of their Payday. Which is probably their real religion, anyway.

This is fundamentally different than watching billboards go by on the highway.

So, even if you don't care about privacy, your kids' privacy, your grandmothers' privacy, et. al., and don't care if $OPPOSING_POLITICAL_PARTY knows your every move, maybe you think that watching those targeted ads won't affect your decisions. Hey, you're a big boy/girl and those stupid ads: You don't believe them, you make your own decisions, you're bad-ass strong.

Right. Y'know, there's a whole bunch of behavioral scientists who write in professional peer-reviewed scientific journals on marketing (remember, they've got PHDs, you don't!) who are rolling on the floor at the moment. Yeah, sure you're not affected. Smirk.

Anonymous (for damn good reasons)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-And-I-care-because-27377481 Mon, 30 Jul 2012 14:52:33 EDT And I care because..... ??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/And-I-care-because-27377264
People LIKE to get free content that is advertising-supported. That way, it's free, and they can watch or not watch the ads.

These "privacy violations" are nothing more than advertisers trying to tailor their messages so that they get maximum impact for their spend. That's actually nice for me, because I get ads that are related to stuff I'm actually interested in (sometimes anyway).

For Chrisssake, they are ADS! Your personal freedom, liberty, and American way of life is NOT in jeopardy. Get a grip on reality people!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/And-I-care-because-27377264 Mon, 30 Jul 2012 13:49:21 EDT