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to tk421storm
Re: Netflix unable to stream HD in Northeast?There's an article in the Wall Street Journal today about the Netflix slowdown. » online.wsj.com/news/arti ··· =netflix |
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to tk421storm
Ridiculous 288 SDI'm getting 288 SD according to the Netflix app. Netflix is seriously broken on Verizon. I called Verizon and they had me do a speed test to one of their servers. That's great, but I'm not paying Verizon for access to their speed test server sitting on their internal network.
I explained to the CSR that I was paying Verizon for access to the Internet and a lot of money for it too. And that their "premium" service wasn't working.
I then downgraded my Internet plan because Verizon is obviously unable to provide service at the level I had. |
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 norm
join:2012-10-18
Pittsburgh, PA |
norm
Member
2014-Feb-19 9:42 pm
said by nothing00:I called Verizon and they had me do a speed test to one of their servers. When did you call and how long were you on hold? |
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navyson
join:2011-07-15
Upper Marlboro, MD
1 edit |
to knordrw
Re: Netflix unable to stream HD in Northeast?said by knordrw:Interesting that you mention no issues with a Roku3 and a TiVo. I have issues with both of those (my TiVos are Roamio Pros though), neither will play anything on Netflix in HD, as well as both will frequently freeze playback, stop and stutter, skip ahead. The devices I've never seen any issues with, oddly enough, are iOS devices. My daughter can stream Netflix on her iPad 2 with no issues at all, at the best quality that device will put out. I just got an Apple TV, haven't had a chance to test Netflix on that yet, I'll have to try it out to see if that is any better. The Roku 3 handles streaming differently than the previous Roku boxes. On previous Roku's boxes, the content is cached on the box for a few seconds to allow immediate HD streaming when the picture shows up. On the Roku 3, there is no caching taking place, the picture streams immediately(albeit in poor quality) until it speeds up if you have a fast connection and then, the picture quality improves. The Roku 3 automatically adjusts picture quality based your speeds and thus virtually eliminates buffering that happens on prior Roku boxes. I was also disappointed when Netflix decided to get rid of the streaming indicator dots on the Roku 3 Netflix app. I can only assume they did this since streaming is now "dynamic" which can go up and down. Currently problems with Netflix has nothing to do with Roku itself but peering agreements among ISP's Verizon seeks payment for carrying Netflix traffic, WSJ reports» arstechnica.com/informat ··· reports/According to a Wall Street Journal report tonight, "[t]he online-video service has been at odds with Verizon Communications Inc. and other broadband providers for months over how much Netflix streaming content they will carry without being paid additional fees. Now the long simmering conflict has heated up and is slowing Netflix, in particular, on Verizon's fiber-optic FiOS service, where Netflix says its average prime-time speeds dropped by 14 percent last month." |
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to norm
Re: Ridiculous 288 SDsaid by norm:said by nothing00:I called Verizon and they had me do a speed test to one of their servers. When did you call and how long were you on hold? No need to call Verizon to do a speedtest. Nothing wrong with your speeds. See article above. |
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to norm
said by norm:When did you call and how long were you on hold? Surprisingly only a few minutes. said by navyson:No need to call Verizon to do a speedtest. Nothing wrong with your speeds. See article above. Sorry, I pay Verizon for Internet access and they're not delivering. There's something wrong with my speeds. |
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serge87
Member
2014-Feb-20 10:52 am
said by nothing00:Sorry, I pay Verizon for Internet access and they're not delivering. There's something wrong with my speeds. You're paying for access to the Internet, you're not paying for guaranteed 50/25 Mbps to every single server on the known Internet. The data you're requesting will arrive only as fast as the sender can deliver it to Verizon's network. |
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said by serge87:You're paying for access to the Internet, you're not paying for guaranteed 50/25 Mbps to every single server on the known Internet. If it wasn't for Internet content like Netflix what does Verizon think I'm paying them for? If we were talking about accessing someone's old Intel i486/66 in their basement I agree. However Netflix is a major online service. I expect to get excellent service to very well known and desired sites on the Internet such as Netflix. Because Verizon, with all of their network engineering knowledge and huge global network, can't provide Internet access to the most popular Internet service I've downgraded my provisioning. And I see no difference in service. said by serge87:The data you're requesting will arrive only as fast as the sender can deliver it to Verizon's network. Or, more clearly, "as fast as Verizon is willing to accept it". From the Netflix rankings and Verizon's own past performance it's clear that Netflix can deliver the data far faster to Verizon's network than Verizon is willing to allow. Verizon's own recent statements say the same thing. Verizon can very simply solve this problem and that's what they're getting paid my subscriber dollars for. If they don't use a tiny fraction of subscriber money to maintain their network and fix these problems then they're just holding customer's hostage hoping they blindly keep paying. |
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serge87
Member
2014-Feb-20 12:11 pm
said by nothing00:However Netflix is a major online service. I expect to get excellent service to very well known and desired sites on the Internet such as Netflix. When you're a business that serves twice the amount of bandwidth than Youtube in a day and 32% of all internet traffic in the U.S.(Netflix), it's not hard to tell why they are struggling to keep up with customer streaming requests from multiple ISPs, not just Verizon. Netflix streaming has gone down the toilet with other ISPs as well, take a look at recent Netflix streaming surveys. said by nothing00:Verizon can very simply solve this problem and that's what they're getting paid my subscriber dollars for. If they don't use a tiny fraction of subscriber money to maintain their network and fix these problems then they're just holding customer's hostage hoping they blindly keep paying. You don't seem to be familiar with Verizon's network infrastructure: » Verizon FiOS FAQ » What is BPON or GPON?Verizon's network is not the weakest point in the chain. They are a Tier 1 network and Netflix is a blip on the radar to them bandwidth-wise. The problem lies at the transit provider and if anyone you should be mad at Cogent or whoever it is that's masquerading as a Tier 1 network. Netflix streams between 3-10Mbps, depending on the quality you select. Are you telling me Verizon's network can't handle ~5 Mbps from each of their customers?! A 32-unit GPON splitter at MINIMUM can guarantee 75Mbps equally to all 32 subscribers on that particular splitter. said by nothing00:Because Verizon, with all of their network engineering knowledge and huge global network, can't provide Internet access to the most popular Internet service I've downgraded my provisioning. And I see no difference in service. I bolded the part where you answered your own question. You could get the 500Mbps plan for all that matters but it wouldn't change your Netflix streaming problem. The problem lies outside of Verizon's internal network. |
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to tk421storm
Re: Netflix unable to stream HD in Northeast? |
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to serge87
Re: Ridiculous 288 SDsaid by serge87:Netflix streaming has gone down the toilet with other ISPs as well, take a look at recent Netflix streaming surveys. Netflix is obviously capable of delivering the content. The same chart you brought up proves it. Performance seems to have declined on all of the large ISPs who have gone on record and have proclaimed, "how dare THEY use OUR pipes!" Strange, it's almost as if these ISPs have gotten together and said, "let's teach Netflix a lesson unless they pay up!" said by serge87:You don't seem to be familiar with Verizon's network infrastructure I could care less if the last mile access was bubble gum and shoe string as long as it delivered the performance that's being sold. said by serge87:Are you telling me Verizon's network can't handle ~5 Mbps from each of their customers?! Obviously not, I can only get around 200-300kbps during peak hours on Netflix. Maybe they should use some subscriber money to add more capacity to their Netflix connections? Let me look something up here. The product I'm subscribed to is "FiOS Internet". It falls under "Most Popular Internet Plans". The ads don't say, "Subscribe to Verizon's Network with RedBox Instant! Some Internet access included!(*)". I expect them to provide adequate capacity for their subscribers. They're not. They're intentionally degrading service to try and strong arm Netflix with their gatekeeper position with subscribers. said by serge87:The problem lies outside of Verizon's internal network. I think you're on to something. The problem is in the Verizon board room. Why doesn't Netflix say more about this issue? "That's sensitive." Or that's what a Comcast person said on another forum. Because they're engaged in talks they undoubtedly already have an agreement in place to not bash one another. So the exact reasons and cause stay out of the public eye. |
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 rebus9
join:2002-03-26
Tampa Bay |
to serge87
said by serge87:Verizon's network is not the weakest point in the chain. They are a Tier 1 network and Netflix is a blip on the radar to them bandwidth-wise. The problem lies at the transit provider and if anyone you should be mad at Cogent or whoever it is that's masquerading as a Tier 1 network. Netflix streams between 3-10Mbps, depending on the quality you select. Are you telling me Verizon's network can't handle ~5 Mbps from each of their customers?! A 32-unit GPON splitter at MINIMUM can guarantee 75Mbps equally to all 32 subscribers on that particular splitter. You need to do a little homework. The issue isn't Verizon's capacity, or Cogent's. It's about peering links being run too hot, intentionally, for the purpose of degrading Netflix performance in order to force Netflix to pay Verizon a fee for specifically carrying their (Netflix's) traffic. BTW, ~35% of total internet traffic is NOT a "blip on the radar". It's a substantial amount of traffic. But again, this is NOT about Cogent's or Verizon's ABILITY to carry traffic. It's about congested peering links being used as leverage to force a pay-for-delivery arrangement. |
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 PoloDude
Premium Member
join:2006-03-29
Aiken, SC |
to nothing00
Why is this so hard for some people to understand? Netflix wants to supply a basically one way service. There is no equal peering.
They do not want to pay for the connection to supply the bandwidth necessary to deliver their product. |
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Netflix is not "peering" with Verizon, though. Cogent is. Verizon does deliver quite a bit of traffic to Cogent, but Cogent is trying to deliver more than a 1:1 ratio. |
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to tk421storm
Re: Netflix unable to stream HD in Northeast?This seems to be the correct forum to post in because it seems I will find a lot a like minded people who will agree with me. I have a custom built file server in my home that only my family and friends are allowed to access. I like to call these people my subscribers. Although the server is in my home I am of course paying for a business account to avoid any issues with having a server on a residential account. Due to our geographic location and the quality of Verizon's offerings every single one of my subscribers is also a subscriber to FiOS internet service. Over the years I have added a lot of new files to my server and I have allowed a lot more people to access my server. In fact the files I have are so popular and the amount of subscribers I have added are so many that I am faced with a problem. In order to keep those subscribers happy I will need to purchase more upload bandwidth, but that is an expense that I am unwilling absorb at this moment. I want to convince Verizon to allow me to bring my server to the nearest co-location point. This way I can plug the server into their power supply (which also has a backup generator) and I can tap into their "unlimited" network connection. It only makes sense for Verizon to allow me to do this since I will only be serving content that Verizon's customer's have requested and if my server is in their building then they won't have to transport the data from my house first and then re-transmit the data to the Verizon customers who are actually requesting the data to begin with. Of course I will have the benefit of not having to pay for a better connection or having to pay to power the server but that is not my motivation to put my server in Verizon's building. I am motivated to increase the quality of Verizon's customers experience (to my content).
What do you think is the best way to convince Verizon to allow me to place my server in their building? Should I tell my subscribers to complain to Verizon because they are paying for a connection that is faster than I can deliver it? Should I publish a list that shows my poor planning in content delivery? Should I start an Congressional investigation? ...
/sarcasm |
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to PoloDude
Re: Ridiculous 288 SDsaid by PoloDude:Why is this so hard for some people to understand? I'm not sure who's having the problem. said by PoloDude:Netflix wants to supply a basically one way service. Annnnd so does Verizon. said by PoloDude:There is no equal peering. Absolutely correct. And there never can be. Because, you know what? Being a residential ISP means you're a bandwidth sink. Bits go in and don't come out. There's no negotiating about transit across the network. There is no, "I'll pass some of your traffic to the next peer if you pass some of mine". The mutually beneficial relationship is what peering was about. There can be no peering with Verizon's ISP service. They have millions of subscribers paying their bills to provide "premier" service which includes maintaining that unequal relationship for their subscribers. Maybe I'll try watching Netflix 24/7 and sending Verizon a bill for the unequal relationship and dumping all of this data onto my network. |
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| nothing00 |
to sneakaround
Re: Netflix unable to stream HD in Northeast?said by sneakaround:What do you think is the best way to convince Verizon to allow me to place my server in their building? Is it a service that a significant number of their customers want? Would your proposed solution both improve their customer experience and also reduce their overall costs? If so it sounds like a win-win and they should welcome you. I've got one for you. Say I'm an electric (utility) company. And thanks to technology (deep electron inspection) I've now been gifted with insight into what devices are in your home and are sucking power. With this new information I learn that over 1/3 of electric in customer's homes is being used to run the new automatic cat napper. It's been a huge runaway product and now even people that don't have cats have three. Now I make loud noises and complain about how I might have to upgrade my power grid due to all of these cat nappers. Actually spend money to meet demand. But thanks to another new technology (electron flow diversion) I can selectively reduce power to the cat nappers. I then tell the cat napper manufacturer that they're going to have to pay me to offset the costs of the power grid upgrades. And if they don't pay there will be a lot of unhappy cat napper owners. Your story was fun but I like mine too. (Oh, and pushing data is cheaper than electricity.) |
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 mackey
Premium Member
join:2007-08-20 |
to PoloDude
Re: Ridiculous 288 SDsaid by PoloDude:Why is this so hard for some people to understand? NetflixVerizon wants to supplyconsume a basically one way service. There is no equal peering.
They do not want to pay for the connection to supplyreceive the bandwidth necessary to deliver the product. FTFY. ALL the data in question has been requested by Verizon's own customers, Netflix isn't just randomly dumping data onto Verizon. By its very nature Verizon's network is a one way data consumer and as such it is impossible for there to be equal peering. Verizon just wants to be paid twice for the same data - once by their direct customers who are requesting the data, and again by the providers who are supplying the requested data. /M |
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to tk421storm
Re: Netflix unable to stream HD in Northeast?After being interrupted many times last night trying to watch Netflix on my ROKU, I tried using my Chromecast instead. It wasn't a systematic experiment but I was able to watch for 1.5 hours using the Chromecast without any hiccups. |
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Ubiquiti EdgeRouter ER-4
Ubiquiti UniFi UAP-nanoHD
Motorola MB8611
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to PoloDude
Re: Ridiculous 288 SDsaid by PoloDude:Why is this so hard for some people to understand? Netflix wants to supply a basically one way service. There is no equal peering.
They do not want to pay for the connection to supply the bandwidth necessary to deliver their product. Thing is, that's not my problem, I pay netflix every month for their services, as I pay Verizon every month for FiOS. I don't care what kind of pissing match they're having behind the scenes, I expect to have a positive experience without such public degrading of services that only punish us end users. And if this was solely on netflix then why is my streaming experience PERFECT if I route netflix traffic through my vypervpn account? I can name a few other sites that have crap routing to verizon as well, github being the first that comes to mind. I barely get 2mbps on github, route it through the VPN I get 70, there's something wrong there, and traceroute's seem to indicate it's verizon's alter.net network screwing up the works. |
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Nick5 to PoloDude
Anon
2014-Feb-21 8:29 am
to PoloDude
said by PoloDude:Why is this so hard for some people to understand? Netflix wants to supply a basically one way service. There is no equal peering.
They do not want to pay for the connection to supply the bandwidth necessary to deliver their product. Netflix backup service! Problem solved while ironically putting more strain on Verizon's network, |
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to PoloDude
I simplified it and excluded some important points but here's my brief take on it: 
In the above, the peering agreement between Cogent and Verizon assumes similar traffic flow between each of them. This is NOT the case and most of the traffic is being dumped onto Verizon by Cogent. This cost-neutral peering agreement has bandwidth specifications and the limit has been reached. As one member previously stated, Cogent is not the only option available - Netflix could also deliver their content via Level(3), GTT/nLayer/Intelliquent, PCCW/BTN, CenturyLink, Sprint, ATT, NTT/Verio, Atrato, Telia, DTAG, etc. There are a wide variety of options to reach Verizon customers - the other carriers work within their peering agreements to ensure capacity is maintained, even if compensation is required due to asymmetrical ratios. Cogent sells dirt-cheap transit to win business in the marketplace, and then when it comes time to actually deliver those bits they cry that the big bad ISPs aren't playing fair because they won't take unlimited amounts of their traffic for free while raking in the cash from Netflix, et al. said by PoloDude:Why is this so hard for some people to understand? Netflix wants to supply a basically one way service. There is no equal peering.
They do not want to pay for the connection to supply the bandwidth necessary to deliver their product. Quoted for truth. said by nothing00:Why doesn't Netflix say more about this issue? "That's sensitive." Good point, why has the cat got Netflix's tongue? Seems they're just as content with their customer's experiences with Netflix streaming, like you're having. said by nothing00:They have millions of subscribers paying their bills to provide "premier" service which includes maintaining that unequal relationship for their subscribers.
Maybe I'll try watching Netflix 24/7 and sending Verizon a bill for the unequal relationship and dumping all of this data onto my network. Better yet, put your money where your mouth is and change ISPs. Though since this is happening across many ISPs I'm not sure how effective this will be... |
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your moderator at work
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thetick
join:2009-06-22
White Plains, NY |
to serge87
Re: Ridiculous 288 SDAs a customer I really don't care about the details of the problem. I just want it fixed. My mother-in-law has a much slower connection 15/5 with Cablevision and has no issues with NetFlix. Her next door neighbor with 50Mb Verizon Fios has Netflix issues with no other web destinations being slow. I'm only a mile with NetFlix problem with FIOS. Verizon needs to resolve this soon or many like my self will switch to a MUCH cheaper 15/5 Cablevison that actually works with NetFlix. As new customer of Cablevision the deal is REALLY good and looking better everytime I attempt NetFlix. I've been Verizon customer since early 90's with phone .. later wireless and DSL and a few years back got FIOS. Does Verizon just not care about it's reputation which is tanking... yet another article today about the Netfix/Verizon dispute. » money.cnn.com/2014/02/21 ··· -netflix"Verizon spokeswoman Linda Laughlin denied that there was any conflict with Netflix." Then fix the problem!!! |
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said by thetick:Verizon needs to resolve this soon or many like my self will switch to a MUCH cheaper 15/5 Cablevison that actually works with NetFlix. Are you a subscriber of Netflix? If so, contact them and let them know you are having streaming problems. Verizon can't force Netflix to choose which CDN/provider they will use to deliver their videos to you. You could also switch ISPs, which is your right as a consumer. |
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 matcarl
Premium Member
join:2007-03-09
Franklin Square, NY |
to thetick
said by thetick: My mother-in-law has a much slower connection 15/5 with Cablevision and has no issues with NetFlix. Her next door neighbor with 50Mb Verizon Fios has Netflix issues with no other web destinations being slow. My friend in Oregon has a 3mbps download speed from their ISP out in the rural countryside where speeds like Verizon's don't exist and never complains about streaming Netflix. |
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norm
join:2012-10-18
Pittsburgh, PA |
to serge87
Every Netflix video I view in US-East is brought to me by Level 3. It still sucks. I routinely run into congestion issues between Verizon and Level 3 outside of Netflix as well. During peak hours. |
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to serge87
said by serge87:Better yet, put your money where your mouth is and change ISPs. Though since this is happening across many ISPs I'm not sure how effective this will be... I took your very helpful suggestion and called all six of the Internet providers that are ranked above FiOS and it turns out NONE OF THEM serve my area?! I don't understand since it sounded so simple when you suggested changing providers. Maybe you can get back to that idea when there's some actual competition in the market, eh? Your logic is infallible if you continue to accept the incredibly flawed premise that there can be any sort of 'equal traffic' peering arrangement. My traffic in / traffic out shows about a 20:1 ratio. And I still haven't received my monthly checks from Verizon for dumping their data onto my network! Oh, and your Cogent assertion is also bunk. I checked and I was not streaming through Cogent. (No, I no longer live where it says publicly or I'd have dumped them for Cablevision over this mess.) |
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said by nothing00:My traffic in / traffic out shows about a 20:1 ratio. And I still haven't received my monthly checks from Verizon for dumping their data onto my network! Not sure if you're trying to be snarky or sarcastic or what, but you don't have a peering agreement with Verizon. (More general comment: Why do people insist on making analogies to situations that are in no way analogous...) said by nothing00:Oh, and your Cogent assertion is also bunk. I checked and I was not streaming through Cogent. Netflix uses Cogent to deliver content to Verizon and some other ISPs. If you have Cablevision now, they are a member of Netflix OpenConnect, so Netflix would stream from a location on cablevision's network. Edit: I think I misunderstood your last sentence. Are you still on FiOS? Then you should see Netflix coming from Cogent unless they recently started using other transit providers. |
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 NormanSI gave her time to steal my mind away
MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
Asus RT-AC66U B1
Netgear FR114P
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to thetick
said by thetick:As a customer I really don't care about the details of the problem. I just want it fixed. My mother-in-law has a much slower connection 15/5 with Cablevision and has no issues with NetFlix. Nor would I expect any Netflix problems with Cablevision: » signup.netflix.com/openconnect |
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