Topic 'Re: The price for hydro is too damn high' in forum 'Canadian Chat' - dslreports.com

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Wed, 07 May 2014 22:33:47 EDT

Gone posted :

But you've been saving 0.7c/kWh since uh....what, 1999? :)

So, you've had 15 years of savings vs the rest of the province.

Believe me, CNP gets that money elsewhere.

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Wed, 07 May 2014 20:00:28 EDT

loosedobbs posted :

said by elwoodblues:

said by dillyhammer:

.

What did Toronto do with that $1.1billion anyway. I know Hamilton pissed theirs away over a few years on pet projects and corporate welfare (tax kickbacks to businesses only).

I'm just curious.

Mike

Two words Comrade Miller

in 2010, until Miller restructured the debt and cashed in the remaining $535-million of their promissory note with hydro, using some of it to pay down this horrendous debt servicing cost.

Miller had already cashed in the first portion — some $245 million — of that hydro note in 2007 and promptly plunked $130-million of it into his Climate Change Fund. To my horror, in 2011 Pennachetti and his staff couldn’t confirm exactly how that money had been spent.

»www.torontosun.com/2014/ ··· l-record

Those days From Toronto Star only Royson James pointed out and hated Miller. And now looks like James and Millers are buddies.

Anyway those Miller Happy Days will be here. Soon.

And apart from salary every other prices have increased. Food, Hydro, Natural Gas, Gas, Internet, cell phone to name a few.

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Wed, 07 May 2014 19:19:56 EDT

nitzguy posted :

said by Gone:

... and for those of us who don't pay a debt retirement charge at all, it's a net increase with no offset - period.

But you've been saving 0.7c/kWh since uh....what, 1999? :)

So, you've had 15 years of savings vs the rest of the province.

In regards to the other utilities, I don't know if any others will be sold any time soon, I know the ones up here are still held by the municipalities and haven't been sold for a one-time gain.

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Wed, 07 May 2014 19:02:13 EDT

dirtyjeffer0 posted : just because Hamilton and Toronto mis-spent their money, doesn't mean none of this is important...that mis-spending is another thread altogether, and the blame lies with those who spent that money.

the gas plant scandal, nor the Green Energy Act are not peanuts and not "not worth talking about"...these are billions of dollars that could have gone towards programs that would have benefited Ontario taxpayers...they didn't.
--
The truth is incontrovertible. Panic may resent it, ignorance may deride it, malice may distort it, but there it is. -Winston Churchill

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. - Winston Churchill

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Wed, 07 May 2014 17:10:10 EDT

dillyhammer posted : So that's $1.225billion gone, from the City Of Toronto and the City of Hamilton alone. And all the interest, from then until now, and all the interest going forward in perpetuity. Now extrapolate that out across every hydro system in Ontario.

The gas plant scandal is peanuts.

The feed-in tariff program isn't even worth talking about. Pennies in a sea of billions.

Mike
--
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Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Wed, 07 May 2014 16:32:27 EDT

elwoodblues posted :

said by dillyhammer:

Two words Comrade Miller

»www.torontosun.com/2014/ ··· l-record

--
My Name is Wiley E Coyote, Super Genius

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Wed, 07 May 2014 16:18:15 EDT

dillyhammer posted :

said by loosedobbs:

"he Ontario government is killing a hydro surcharge for residential users, but is also scrapping a program that saved ratepayers money."

"When it all shakes out, Ontarians will be paying more."

According to Thursday’s annual provincial budget, come Jan. 1, 2016, the debt retirement charge on residential bills will be eliminated — an average savings of about $70 a year.

Simultaneously, the budget also scrapped the Ontario Clean Energy Benefit, a program that saved Ontarians $180 a year. That means the average rate-payer will be paying $110 more a year on their hydro bills.

This year, Toronto Hydro has to refinance the $1.1billion it "borrowed" to pay the dividend to the City Of Toronto, resulting in it's taking over of the utility.

Of course, they have neither obligation nor regulation requiring them to negotiate a better deal. Rather, the interest it get's charged is considered an operating cost and passed on to the hydro user base via one of those pesky fees. Good way to make their rich lending buddies richer at our expense. 6%? Sure! No problem.

What did Toronto do with that $1.1billion anyway. I know Hamilton pissed theirs away over a few years on pet projects and corporate welfare (tax kickbacks to businesses only).

I'm just curious.

Mike
--
I've picked on Cogeco long enough. Who's next? Any volunteers?

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Fri, 02 May 2014 17:36:18 EDT

Gone posted : ... and for those of us who don't pay a debt retirement charge at all, it's a net increase with no offset - period.

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Fri, 02 May 2014 13:19:29 EDT

loosedobbs posted :

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Mon, 28 Apr 2014 17:55:48 EDT

dillyhammer posted : It had nothing to do with economics. The GST cuts were political spending to secure a majority government - a $15billion off-topic mistake that we're still paying for. It's all smoke-n-mirrors, just like Ontario's hydro rates.

:)

Mike
--
I've picked on Cogeco long enough. Who's next? Any volunteers?

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 14:03:29 EDT

TLS2000 posted : You want to bring up that one, eh? Personally I think it was sound economics. The more money I have in my pocket, the more I can spend. It was good for the economy, if not necessarily for the federal treasury.
--
Tom

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 11:33:16 EDT

elwoodblues posted :

said by Ian1:

"in this latest Liberal scheme to buy votes with taxpayer's money."

And it's this that should stop. Just because you're a Liberal you think you can buy votes?

Oh please I already pointed out elsewhere everyone does this. What do think the GST cuts were? Sound economics or politics?
--
My Name is Wiley E Coyote, Super Genius

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 09:11:31 EDT

Ian1 posted : "in this latest Liberal scheme to buy votes with taxpayer's money."

And it's this that should stop. Just because you're a Liberal you think you can buy votes?

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Thu, 24 Apr 2014 22:11:14 EDT

TLS2000 posted :

said by dirtyjeffer0:

fair may be subjective to which "side" you are on...it still is "equal", meaning everyone pays their fair share.

I'm not entirely sure I agree with you on "sides". I'd say it's got more to do with perspective. I make decent enough money that I'm able to afford a place to live AND go to school. My income is higher than the level that would get me a rebate in this latest Liberal scheme to buy votes with taxpayer's money. That said, I still think it's a good idea. People with lesser means shouldn't be forced to live out their lives barely scraping by while others who can better afford to contribute can do so.
--
Tom

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Thu, 24 Apr 2014 21:57:57 EDT

Ian1 posted :

said by dirtyjeffer0:

fair may be subjective to which "side" you are on...it still is "equal", meaning everyone pays their fair share.

No. It still is a progressive tax scheme. What's fair? At what point have you paid your share and then some?
--
Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency. David Wong

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Thu, 24 Apr 2014 21:55:06 EDT

dirtyjeffer0 posted :

said by TLS2000:

Is it fair, really?

fair may be subjective to which "side" you are on...it still is "equal", meaning everyone pays their fair share.

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Thu, 24 Apr 2014 21:45:11 EDT

TLS2000 posted : Is it fair, really? I used to think the same as you, but let's consider this:

A flat tax creates a level playing field only if you're looking at taxes on their own.

A tax based on different income levels is essentially asking those who are capable to make small sacrifices in order to help those who aren't capable. This in turn provides more opportunities for those who aren't capable to perhaps get educated, start small business, maybe eat if they can't afford food. For the ones who are able to start small businesses with that little bit of extra "help" from the taxman, they eventually may get to the position where they're complaining that they pay too much in tax.

When a poor family is paying out 95% of their income just to live, is it "fair" that a rich family is able to afford a large house, two cars, private schooling for their children, college tuition for their children and yearly vacations to the Caribbean?

Point being, while a flat tax is "fair", so is a tax based on different tiers of income. They're both philosophically different, but they both have valid points. I think I'd rather give a hand up to the people who aren't able to put food on the table, even if it means that a rich family has to take their vacation in Cuba instead of Cancun.
--
Tom

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Thu, 24 Apr 2014 21:33:07 EDT

dirtyjeffer0 posted :

said by MichelR:

No on the former, yes on the latter. Flat tax rate = crap. It's only good for the rich, and pretty much crap for the middle class. A progressive rate is better, and if politicians could let go of pet projects and useless waste to save face or their seats, we wouldn't be in the hole we're in now.

a flat tax is fair though...even if you don't want to do it for income, it certainly should be for other taxes (property tax, etc)...we should be fostering and promoting "growth", not punishing it with more/higher taxes.
--
The truth is incontrovertible. Panic may resent it, ignorance may deride it, malice may distort it, but there it is. -Winston Churchill

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. - Winston Churchill

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Thu, 24 Apr 2014 18:01:11 EDT

MichelR posted :

said by dirtyjeffer0:

said by Ian1:

As for making the rich pay? It's been the go-to approach of every Government. Liberal/Conservative, you name it. Why? Because they can. You can't get blood from a stone. Raising taxes on the poor just simply nets you nothing. "x %" of nothing is still nothing.

i think the more appropriate thing to do would be a fair and equal tax rate for all and have the Government spend within its means.

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Thu, 24 Apr 2014 16:46:34 EDT

dirtyjeffer0 posted :

said by Ian1:

i think the more appropriate thing to do would be a fair and equal tax rate for all and have the Government spend within its means.
--
The truth is incontrovertible. Panic may resent it, ignorance may deride it, malice may distort it, but there it is. -Winston Churchill

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. - Winston Churchill

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Thu, 24 Apr 2014 15:46:26 EDT

Jackorama posted :

said by Robrr:

I'm surprised this hasn't come up yet given it was all over the news last night

Debt retirement charge gone, Clean energy benefit gone:
»www.cbc.ca/news/canada/t ··· .2619632

And a new fee for households making more than $40k/year
»www.torontosun.com/2014/ ··· t-charge

The summarize: Hydro bills are going up! A LOT!

My hydro bill goes down about $5 a month, whoopie doo. How about cutting that delivery charge back or stop charging me an extra 25 kWh a month because of loss through your lines, not mine.

Then it will go up the with the removal of the %10 OCEB, now up another $10 -$13 a month or more depending on the cost that month. But, then again if we didn't have that discount we wouldn't notice the increase in the first place.

As for the Ontario Electricity Support Program, I'll believe it when I see it.
--
"Whenever they invent something that's moron proof, someone comes by and invents a better moron."

"Ever stop to think, and forget to start again?"

"Those of you who think you know everything are annoying those of us who do."

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Thu, 24 Apr 2014 15:24:46 EDT

Ian1 posted : The "math" of the Liberals makes no sense no matter how sliced. Throw in taxes, whatever. Still wrong.

As for making the rich pay? It's been the go-to approach of every Government. Liberal/Conservative, you name it. Why? Because they can. You can't get blood from a stone. Raising taxes on the poor just simply nets you nothing. "x %" of nothing is still nothing.
--
Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency. David Wong

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Thu, 24 Apr 2014 13:30:50 EDT

peterboro posted : Great bootstraps speech DJ.

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Thu, 24 Apr 2014 13:26:47 EDT

dirtyjeffer0 posted : to be fair, he doesn't specify what the income is for the "8%" group...perhaps that family's income is only $20,000...the 8% would be $1600...further complicating matters, is the second part of his statement refers to "take home pay"...that $100,000 income family, may have a take home pay of $65,000, so 2% would be $1300.

in any event, you are correct in that their mish mash of numbers is either arrived at through incompetence or is purposefully convoluted to try and push their stupid ideas forward.

i never understood the whole "make the rich pay" mantra...why on earth do we punish those who have made something of their lives?...work hard, invest in yourself, set goals and achieve them, strive for greatness, climb the corporate ladder...when you are there, great job - way to go...now pay for everyone else...dumb.
--
The truth is incontrovertible. Panic may resent it, ignorance may deride it, malice may distort it, but there it is. -Winston Churchill

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. - Winston Churchill

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Thu, 24 Apr 2014 13:08:35 EDT

Ian1 posted : "Chiarelli said the intent of the program is to help families with an income of less than $40,000 pay for their electricity.

A low-income family can spend 8% of their income on electricity, compared to a family earning $100,000 or more who need dedicate only 2% of their take-home pay to their hydro bill."

So the family making $40,000 a year spends $3,200 on electricity. The family making $100,000 spends $2,000? Liberal-Math. Gotta love it. :uhh: Guess there's a good reason why they have been so incompetent financially for a decade...
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Thu, 24 Apr 2014 10:47:58 EDT

peterboro posted : Maybe they should get relief on heating as well. It's open to debate.

The income verification may be tied to CRA like the provincial credits are now. How that transfers to a utility should be interesting.

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Thu, 24 Apr 2014 10:43:52 EDT

nitzguy posted :

said by peterboro:

"While all the details of the new Ontario Electricity Support Program have yet to be worked out, Chiarelli said the intent of the program is to help families with an income of less than $40,000 pay for their electricity. A low-income family can spend 8% of their income on electricity, compared to a family earning $100,000 or more who need dedicate only 2% of their take-home pay to their hydro bill."

It's about time they tied the higher prices into an income tested relief program.

We don't have an income tested relief program for natural gas or home heating oil prices. So, you're saying that someone who pays with natural gas for their heat is worse off than someone who uses electricity for their heat? Aka, I'm subsidizing someone else? What is this, Russia?

Also, how do you calculate an income tested relief program? Scouts honor? My name is on the hydro bill and if I make less than $40,000 a year then do I get these reduced rates?

What about single people? Will they get the same break?

The devil is in the details.

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Thu, 24 Apr 2014 10:19:02 EDT

peterboro posted : "While all the details of the new Ontario Electricity Support Program have yet to be worked out, Chiarelli said the intent of the program is to help families with an income of less than $40,000 pay for their electricity. A low-income family can spend 8% of their income on electricity, compared to a family earning $100,000 or more who need dedicate only 2% of their take-home pay to their hydro bill."

It's about time they tied the higher prices into an income tested relief program.

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Thu, 24 Apr 2014 09:53:37 EDT

Robrr posted : I'm surprised this hasn't come up yet given it was all over the news last night

Debt retirement charge gone, Clean energy benefit gone:
»www.cbc.ca/news/canada/t ··· .2619632

And a new fee for households making more than $40k/year
»www.torontosun.com/2014/ ··· t-charge

The summarize: Hydro bills are going up! A LOT!

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Thu, 17 Apr 2014 20:20:56 EDT

nitzguy posted :

said by Gone:

Um, you are aware that there are only two or three privately-owned electrical utilities in all of Ontario, right? And that Toronto Hydro is not one of them? And that neither are Ontario Power Generation or Hydro One?

Wait, don't answer that. :uhh:

Only 2 or 3?....I know of Great Lakes Electric which rolled into Great Lakes Power and then was bought by Brookfield Power that I know is a private owned electric utility....

Anywho, in Northern Ontario no less....smart though, hydro power is just money....

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:40:02 EDT

dillyhammer posted :

said by elwoodblues:

Nope, dividends are payments from profit to the shareholders. That;s one of the reasons more and more companies are buying back stock with their tax savings. They keep the profits, that and it raises the price of the stock because there is less of it.

Yup.

In the case of Toronto Hydro, they pay the City of Toronto 50% of their net earnings each year as a dividend. ABout a quarter of a billion in the last decade. And that's just Toronto.

Toronto Hydro is also over 1 billion in debt and has to finance that every couple of years. Guess where that money went? Guess who's paying the interest on that?

Hydro prices are high because of a few wind mills and a smattering of solar panels? Oh brother.

Mike
--
I've picked on Cogeco long enough. Who's next? Any volunteers?

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:31:20 EDT

elwoodblues posted : Nope, dividends are payments from profit to the shareholders. That;s one of the reasons more and more companies are buying back stock with their tax savings. They keep the profits, that and it raises the price of the stock because there is less of it.
--
My Name is Wiley E Coyote, Super Genius

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:27:18 EDT

MyrddinEmrys posted : Hmmm... I thought the "dividends" was a one time thing with the incorporation.

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:11:57 EDT

dillyhammer posted :

said by elwoodblues:

His point stands, Toronto Hydro kicks back $42m/yr in "dividends" to it's sole shareholder, the City of Toronto.

That's just the tip of the iceberg. No amount of "ums" and ' :uhh: 's changes the fact this has been going on for 16 years in earnest, and far longer behind sort-of-closed doors. The other lasting legacy from that era still plagues us with similar consequences - the 407. Funny how those legacies more resemble the Herpes Simplex II virus than public service.

Changing parties at election time solves nothing, as we have seen.

We need a systemic culture change. Elections don't do that. For that, you need insurrection and sedition. In other words: balls.

Mike
--
I've picked on Cogeco long enough. Who's next? Any volunteers?

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Thu, 17 Apr 2014 12:42:05 EDT

elwoodblues posted :

said by Gone:

His point stands, Toronto Hydro kicks back $42m/yr in "dividends" to it's sole shareholder, the City of Toronto.
--
My Name is Wiley E Coyote, Super Genius

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Thu, 17 Apr 2014 10:48:08 EDT

Gone posted : Um, you are aware that there are only two or three privately-owned electrical utilities in all of Ontario, right? And that Toronto Hydro is not one of them? And that neither are Ontario Power Generation or Hydro One?

Wait, don't answer that. :uhh:

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Thu, 17 Apr 2014 10:39:36 EDT

dillyhammer posted :

said by Hydraglass:

sure go blame FIT contracts all you want - but the reality is they don't even make a tiny dent in our actual hydro costs

Blaming the FIT contracts and/or the gas plant scandal are convenient excuses for those with... selectively short memories. I'm being kind.

Granted, we were already on a slippery slope in '95. Hydro had racked up billions in debt due to mismanagement and a unionized culture of entitlement at the public trough.

But we are an energy-based species. It was only a matter of time before political corruption trumped public service and our hydro system, which was built by the taxpayers of Ontario over the course of 7 decades, was transformed into a meta-taxation system aimed at generating revenues.

Looking at my hydro bill now, the 73.00 I was charged for my 380kWh includes 31.00 for the electricity, and 42.00 in fees.

A huge chunk of those fees goes to 3 major things. One, the operating costs of the bloated, privately owned corporation that flips switches. Two, the dividends paid to the sole shareholder of that corporation - The City Of Toronto. Three, the interest on the dividend paid to the shareholder upon completion of the asset transfer.

I have excluded the $9.00 in HST that the government also wants to steal because they kicked $8 of it back.

Again, it is so difficult to talk about this stuff without getting political, because the problem was started by politics and therein lies the solution. I will add, the hypocrisy we're seeing from Hudak on this file is preposterous. The man belongs in prison, along with Eves, Harris, and that prick Flaherty had Hell not got him first.

And again, I'd be happy to take this conversation over to CanPol so I can take the gloves off.

Mike
--
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Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Wed, 16 Apr 2014 23:14:14 EDT

PX Eliezer1 posted :

said by Gone:

The problem is that Ontario's manufacturing sector will under no circumstances ever be competitive ever again.

Why is that? I ask because I don't know....

If the issues are high labor costs or high taxes, the market forces should correct for that at least partly.

If the reason is energy costs, that might be ameliorated as well.

Ontario is so large in population, so large in area, so rich in transport, and so centrally located, that it seems tragic to say there will not be major manufacturing there in the future.

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Wed, 16 Apr 2014 21:43:34 EDT

Gone posted :

said by AppleGuy:

Well, one company here did figure a way around it; install solar panels for day shift, cut down costs, and have a night shift when electricity is cheaper. Working so far, they claim a $70,000/month different. That's almost a million bucks. (day shift is SHORT. Night shifts are 13 hours, they have 2 of them, 3 on, 4 off, 4 on, 3 off) All heavy work is at night.

That doesn't work for large companies that use demand based billing and pay the global adjustment directly.

I do know of one company in Fort Erie that had multiple low (comparatively-speaking, anyway) amperage services installed rather than move to a single larger amperage demand based billing setup specifically for this reason, though.

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Wed, 16 Apr 2014 21:34:33 EDT

Gone posted :

said by Hydraglass:

So - sure go blame FIT contracts all you want - but the reality is they don't even make a tiny dent in our actual hydro costs. If you want to know where the actual electricity comes from:
»www.ieso.ca/Pages/Power- ··· ply.aspx

The individual percentages are irrelevant. The increase in global adjustment between 2005 and 2013 proves otherwise.

quote:
The Global Adjustment (GA) is the difference between the total payments made to certain contracted or regulated generators and any offsetting market revenues, as well as the costs of conservation and demand response programs.

»www.ieso.ca/Pages/Partic ··· ive.aspx

The global adjustment average in 2005 was $-6.175 per MWh - yes, minus. In 2013 it was $59.69. That is a whopping 1000% increase in less than ten years and has a a direct and very real impact on the hydro costs we're paying today. This increase is a direct result of all of the over-market-value contracts that the province has entered between 2005 and today. Whether or not you chose to believe this is irrelevant. The numbers themselves simply don't lie.

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Wed, 16 Apr 2014 21:07:40 EDT

AppleGuy posted : Well, one company here did figure a way around it; install solar panels for day shift, cut down costs, and have a night shift when electricity is cheaper. Working so far, they claim a $70,000/month different. That's almost a million bucks. (day shift is SHORT. Night shifts are 13 hours, they have 2 of them, 3 on, 4 off, 4 on, 3 off) All heavy work is at night.

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Wed, 16 Apr 2014 21:07:28 EDT

Hydraglass posted :

said by AppleGuy:

said by Gone:

Oh and more FYI - hydro prices aren't high because of the gas plant scandal. They're high because of McGuinty's FIT program and paying more than the market rate for electricity for every schmuck who puts a solar panel on their roof or a wind turbine in their field. That is the only fact that is indisputable and for which you cannot deny. The fault for this mess lays squarely in the hands of Dalton McGuinty.

Yet, Ontarians will easily buy into another 4 years of them because "Team Party Tim" is an evil Republican and Andrea is a socialist. (according to the Libs) But we'll keep in "non-political"

Anyway, nothing we can do about it now. We pay more than we did, and that's not going to change anytime soon. We can only hope that any new electrical generation will be less expensive and that hopefully the bafoons in Toronto have learned their lesson.

MODS: Please don't delete, not intended to be political.

Blaming FIT contracts is popular but is nothing but a red herring.

ALL MicroFIT contracts in the province (Small solar, Biogas, Small wind, etc.) add up to a grand total of 124MW out of 33,000MW... less than 1/2 of 1% of our power - even if they were paid $2/kwh it wouldn't bump up the overall rate by more than about 1c. And since they are all for less than $1/kwh the real impact is less than 1/2c.

As for large wind FIT (which is 16c/kwh) it too only accounts for 4% of our power - so could maybe again be worth a whole 1c of our rate.... So all of those things added up are nary a dent in the input electricity costs - less than 1 1/2c.... So - sure go blame FIT contracts all you want - but the reality is they don't even make a tiny dent in our actual hydro costs. If you want to know where the actual electricity comes from:
»www.ieso.ca/Pages/Power- ··· ply.aspx

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Wed, 16 Apr 2014 20:59:21 EDT

Gone posted : The problem is that Ontario's manufacturing sector will under no circumstances ever be competitive ever again. We can forget about anything new coming into the province, and what we have now probably won't make it through a retooling or upgrade without taking off for a cheaper jurisdiction.

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Wed, 16 Apr 2014 20:16:21 EDT

AppleGuy posted :

said by Gone:

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Wed, 16 Apr 2014 20:07:43 EDT

AppleGuy posted : I usually order a small Tim's...that's enough for 2 Tim's. Being that I treat myself twice a month, guess I'll have to go without from now on.

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Wed, 16 Apr 2014 19:46:05 EDT

loosedobbs posted : rate go up. One less timmy.

Electricity is going up by 0.6 cents per kilowatt hour during peak hours to 13.5 cents, starting May 1, according to the Ontario Energy Board. "

The average Ontario house will pay roughly $2.83 more per month, a hike of 2.4 per cent, for 800 kWh of electricity according to the Ontario Energy Board.

The OEB reviews electricity prices twice per year.

The board approved a slightly larger hike in electricity rates in November and in March approved a 40 per cent jump for Enbridge gas customers.

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Sun, 13 Apr 2014 09:28:47 EDT

Gone posted : You're the one who brought up Hamilton, not us.

FYI - St. Catharines didn't "sell" to Horizon as a minority shareholder. Horizon was formed as a merger of St. Catharines Hydro and Hamilton Hydro in 2005. The board composition and ownership is based on the population of the two municipalities. Hamilton has squandered its portion of the funds. St. Catharines hasn't.

Oh and more FYI - hydro prices aren't high because of the gas plant scandal. They're high because of McGuinty's FIT program and paying more than the market rate for electricity for every schmuck who puts a solar panel on their roof or a wind turbine in their field. That is the only fact that is indisputable and for which you cannot deny. The fault for this mess lays squarely in the hands of Dalton McGuinty.

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Sun, 13 Apr 2014 09:20:32 EDT

dillyhammer posted : Deleted. Sorry, I missed the mod's comments about CanPol.

Hydro has been broken for several decades.

We are an energy-based society, devoted to consumption. Governments of course know this and have attached themselves accordingly.

The slippery slope started here:

»www.ontla.on.ca/web/bill ··· nt=false

It's virtually impossible to discuss hydro rates outside the context of politics, as they are inextricably intertwined, so that ends my participation in the discussion here, but if anyone wants to continue it over in CanPol, I'm there.

Mike

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Sun, 13 Apr 2014 08:10:51 EDT

Gone posted : You've got a pretty warped idea of what "facts" are.

FYI, the hydro fund has existed in some form or another in St. Cats since before the Tories were in power, as the city operates it's own generation that was never part of Ontario Hydro. So much for "facts" eh?

Re: The price for hydro is too damn high

Sun, 13 Apr 2014 08:00:12 EDT

dillyhammer posted : Deleted. Sorry, I missed the mod's comments about CanPol.

Mike