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bluefin
Member
2015-Jun-12 12:45 pm
[HVAC] confused with HVAC /furnace quotesWe are in need of a new 3 ton HVAC unit in Maryland and have received the following options wrt replacing AC, AC plus coils, AC/coils /furnace so we are a bit overwhelmed with figuring this out. And in addition we don't know whether to go 1vs 2 stage or variable vs single speed furnace. AC is a must. Coils are original -30 years. Furnace is 15-20 years. 2 story+basement ~2200 sq ft house. Upstairs is usually warm with AC on.
1)Replace just the AC unit with a 3 ton 13 seer R22 Goodman GSC130361F (only 1 year parts/labor warranty) $2000
2)Replace AC unit with R410 unit, refrigerant lines, coils $4400
Trane T4TTX6036 3 tons 16 seer 10 year parts warranty
Trance Evaporator coil T4TXCC037BC3HCb
3)Replace ALL -AC/coils/furnace
Company 1- Same equipment as above plus trane 90+ TTUC1C100A9481A 100,000 btu/92%eff furnace (I think this is the XR95?) ADD $2200 to above cost for total of $6600
Company 2- Trane XV80 2 stage furnace 100,000 btu/80AFUE
Trane XL18i Air conditioner 4TTX8036A
Aspen ACE36D44 Evap Coil
Trane 802 thermostat. Total Cost : $7950 - $1500 rebates= $6450
Company 2- Trane 13 seer/1 stage furnace (no other info provided) $5500
We really don't know where to begin -option 1/2/3 and then what options to go with as each company is pushing either -simplicity/single stage / cheaper repairs or 2 stage/better comfort.
Any advice would be appreciated! We are leaning towards option 1 or 2 since we don't NEED to replace furnace but..... |
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I wouldn't go with #1 since its r22. I would upgrade to a higher SEER unit with new refrigerant. |
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 Boricua
Premium Member
join:2002-01-26
Sacramuerto |
to bluefin
I went through the same thing last year. I ended up getting a Lennox. I would go with the Trane and not Goodman. Trane is of higher quality and won't break down on you. |
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to bluefin
If upstairs is warm then 3 ton isn't enough - plain and simple.
Someone needs to do a real load calculation on the house. The load calculation will give you the value that you really need for running 24/7, if you want to be able to save energy and use setbacks then the capacity must be increased.
Hint: I have 4.5 ton total for 2350sqft in 70's construction. Variable speed blower takes care of humidity, and if you can use a 2-stage compressor then you can save even more. |
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Liberty
Premium Member
join:2005-06-12
Arizona |
to bluefin
I am in my first month with new AC unit.
I sort of ease dropped as the guys were working.
The guy who was the new guy/go-ffer struggled some with getting the indoor coil unit ready for the tech.
He asked why it was so much heavier than the others.
Tech said because it is higher SEER& more efficient.
In my shopping around it seemed the more efficient ones had better warrantees.
For the 10-15% price difference, the slightly lower electrical use & better warrantee for 16 SEER vs 13 worked for me.
Two stage / variable speed is something that could be beneficial but my budget didn't have room for it.
The programable thermostat that came with it was not that intuitive & my mate was totally confused.
Got a Ecobee3 to replace it and all is well with everyone... |
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 Msradell
Premium Member
join:2008-12-25
Louisville, KY |
to cowboyro
said by cowboyro:If upstairs is warm then 3 ton isn't enough - plain and simple. That certainly isn't a certainty! It's a possibility but the problem could be how the ducting is installed and adjusted just as easily as it is the size of the unit. Someone needs to do a real load calculation on the house. This is the correct answer, not what you stated above! The only way to know what size unit you need is to do the calculations instead of guessing. As to the OPs questions, assuming the cost isn't an issue my choice would be #3 from company number one. There is definitely no sense in going back with R22 and while you're at it you might as well replace everything and get the advantage of a higher efficiency furnace. In the area you live your probably about equally split between cooling needs and heating needs. The first quote from company 2 is quite expensive and has a lower efficiency furnace. I also don't like the fact that the coil they are using is from a different company than the air-conditioner itself. That could cause warranty issues down the road. Their other quote doesn't really contain enough information to even be considered in the low efficiency air-conditioner would be a expensive choice in the long run. |
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cowboyro
Premium Member
2015-Jun-12 4:29 pm
said by Msradell:There is definitely no sense in going back with R22 That highly depends on the usage. There is a $2400 cost difference, and while the unit may be of lower efficiency, the break-even time of the more efficient unit is quite long. If the OP uses $150 worth of A/C per month for 5 months per year, the break-even time is about 17 years - comparable with the expected life of the unit. |
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We've had 4 companies out and not one of them mentioned doing a load calculation-so I guess we have to ask for that when we make the appointment.
One guy that was from our neighborhood did say no matter what he installs we will never be entirely satisfied with the upstairs due to the way these homes were built and the way they did the duct work. The other person did say that the 2 stage unit& variable speed fan would help with the comfort level upstairs.
We had asked for quotes many years ago on installing an upstairs heatpump/air handler unit in the attic to eliminate those issues and which would allow us to eliminate a lot of the duct work but the quotes were all above $8K so we did not proceed since it was not a necessity. But many homes in our area have done this. |
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Termitess to bluefin
Anon
2015-Jun-12 5:11 pm
to bluefin
Your outside and inside unit needs to be replaces (TOGETHER)or it will not work like it should..
get the Follow equipment..
(3.5 TON 16 SEER or higher R-410-R410a 2-Stage.)
i just built a new house and they sized my unit to the House its 1700SQ so i have a 3 Ton unit you need a bigger one thats why the 3.5-4 Ton,Now the 2 stage what this means is if your house only means the 1 stage it will only Operate on 59% power therefore saving money, if it needs 2 stage.. So get 2 stage
I did and my Electric bill was $93 from last month 92F outside 70f INSIDE,. |
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Msradell
Premium Member
join:2008-12-25
Louisville, KY |
to cowboyro
said by cowboyro:said by Msradell:There is definitely no sense in going back with R22 That highly depends on the usage. There is a $2400 cost difference, and while the unit may be of lower efficiency, the break-even time of the more efficient unit is quite long. If the OP uses $150 worth of A/C per month for 5 months per year, the break-even time is about 17 years - comparable with the expected life of the unit. You also have to take into account that the cost for repairing units with R22 are going to be significantly higher in the future. The price of R22 will continue to climb as it becomes harder and harder to get. Before the unit itself wears out you will no longer be able to get Freon for it. |
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cowboyro
Premium Member
2015-Jun-12 9:43 pm
said by Msradell:You also have to take into account that the cost for repairing units with R22 are going to be significantly higher in the future. The price of R22 will continue to climb as it becomes harder and harder to get. Before the unit itself wears out you will no longer be able to get Freon for it. The price of supplies is a small part of the entire repair bill. And given that currently it goes for under $15/lb and having someone come on site probably starts at $150, I see no issue whatsoever. |
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shezamsMy Other Car Is A Zamboni
Premium Member
join:2001-08-14
Hyattsville, MD |
to bluefin
I think avoiding an R-22 unit is a good idea. As far as sizing goes, it is a good idea to get it done properly, and that requires calculations be done. Too big and you will not do a good job of dehumidifying, too small and it will not cool enough, although a variable fan can help a slightly too large unit dehumidify better. I would lean toward getting the furnace, coil and condensing unit as a package. Another very important point, the quality of the install matters more than who made the unit. Do some research on the companies and get some neighborhood references if you can. |
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Termitess to cowboyro
Anon
2015-Jun-13 3:27 pm
to cowboyro
said by cowboyro:said by Msradell:There is definitely no sense in going back with R22 That highly depends on the usage. There is a $2400 cost difference, and while the unit may be of lower efficiency, the break-even time of the more efficient unit is quite long. If the OP uses $150 worth of A/C per month for 5 months per year, the break-even time is about 17 years - comparable with the expected life of the unit. That's incorrect on the cost savings since everyone's is Different you made like your house 80F while he likes it 68F,My Electric bill last year before i built this house was $270 for 1400SQ the place was built in the 70's,The Total Electric for last year was $3,240-$3800.. my Projected Expense for the Electric Bill since am in the New house which is 1700SQ is $1416-$1600 a savings of $1,824-$2,200 (4years or less this unit will pay for itself.same goes with him,he needs to take his total electric from last years bill and his new month with the unit installed and go from there. |
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 rebus9
join:2002-03-26
Tampa Bay |
to bluefin
said by bluefin:1)Replace just the AC unit with a 3 ton 13 seer R22 Goodman GSC130361F (only 1 year parts/labor warranty) $2000 Florida climate is hard on AC units. They not only deal with heat, a ton of humidity which keeps their evaporator assemblies soaking in water all the time. Trashy brands die quickly. Do yourself a favor and throw away the Goodman quote. Trane is a decent brand, as are Carrier and Rheem. Personally I like Rheem with their scroll compressors. Across several properties, every Rheem unit has lived more than 20 years before failing. The last one I replaced ran 26 years with NO major repairs at all. All it got were routine checkups every 12-18 months, a new drip pan at age 18, and a reversing valve (inexpensive). |
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to Termitess
said by Termitess :That's incorrect on the cost savings since everyone's is Different you made like your house 80F while he likes it 68F,My Electric bill last year before i built this house was $270 for 1400SQ the place was built in the 70's,The Total Electric for last year was $3,240-$3800.. my Projected Expense for the Electric Bill since am in the New house which is 1700SQ is $1416-$1600 a savings of $1,824-$2,200 (4years or less this unit will pay for itself.same goes with him,he needs to take his total electric from last years bill and his new month with the unit installed and go from there. Incorrect on both counts. The overall electric bill has no meaning - only the "summer" vs "fall/spring" matters. And as a worst case scenario a upper limit for the usage can be determined - 3 ton 13SEER uses about 2800W, that's $5/day based on 12h/day active compressor time and $0.15/kWh. So the $150/mo figure thrown in was seriously on the high side. |
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 pende_tim
Premium Member
join:2004-01-04
Selbyville, DE |
to rebus9
said by rebus9:Do yourself a favor and throw away the Goodman quote. Trane is a decent brand, as are Carrier and Rheem. Personally I like Rheem with their scroll compressors. I think you will find very little difference "under the hood" on AC units. For example, Goodman uses Copeland scroll compressors in the higher SEER stuff. If you are comparing a 13 SEER R22 unit to a 16 SEER unit, there will be differences in build and quality. Compare one manufacturer's 16 SEER to another manufacturer's 16 SEER and the differences become less. As manufacturers attempt to engineer "value" into units, I am afraid that you can't compare a 1980's unit to today's "optimized" equipment. Best advice: negotiate a 10 year parts and labor backed by the OEM ( not the installer as you may need to call a different company to service if not satisfied with original installer) as part of the purchase cost. Second advice: Make sure the person doing the proposal does an honest analysis of the heating and cooling load, ie. a Manual "J" calculation and air infiltration test. The load on every house is different due to climate, windows, insulation, occupancy, orientation and air leaks. These days the quality of the install is much more important than the badge on the cabinet. |
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longread to cowboyro
Anon
2015-Jun-14 5:36 am
to cowboyro
» www.acdirect.com/truth-a ··· -ratingsAll about seer ratings don't waste money... |
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comp
Premium Member
join:2001-08-16
Evans City, PA |
comp
Premium Member
2015-Jun-14 7:55 am
I agree the sizing varies.. We have a 2800sqft new house with a 2.5 ton Lennox unit.. Keeps the house between 70-76 perfect Ran 11 hours yesterday in 90+ here in Western PA |
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Liberty
Premium Member
join:2005-06-12
Arizona |
to bluefin
Then there is the highly subjective value that can be looked at, that is sometimes contrary to 'whats in it for me' - 'how much am I willing to contribute towards an effort to use less of a finite resource?' |
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Dodge
Premium Member
join:2002-11-27 |
to bluefin
I just went through this process and the equipment was installed last week a day before the temps hit 90+. Initially we were also agonizing over save money vs comfort but at the end decided that something like this cannot be easily undone if you don't like it and went high end lennox equipment.
The old equipment (single stage 35 year old furnace / ~8 year old 4 ton A/C) when the temps reached over 85, the lowest it could muster is 71 on the first floor (according to the thermostat, felt warmer) and hot on the second floor even if the unit was set to 68. New equipment - 91 and humid outside, 68 inside the house, 49% humidity (that's what it's set to) and the A/C is 3 ton (based on manual j) variable / inverter (or whatever it's called on A/Cs). Additional advantage SUPER quiet inside the house, and the ouside part just has the sound of rushing air which you will only hear if you have direct line of sight and standing closer than 20 feed away from the unit, on the other hand the damn thing is like 5+ feet tall.
I don't know the cost savings on my electric bill if any, as the unit is only a week old for me, but regardless, the improvement in comfort is amazing. |
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What brand did you buy? |
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Msradell
Premium Member
join:2008-12-25
Louisville, KY |
Msradell
Premium Member
2015-Jun-15 11:15 am
At the end of the first paragraph he said they went with Lennox. |
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Boricua
Premium Member
join:2002-01-26
Sacramuerto |
to Dodge
Dodge , I can relate to the tallness of the Lennox. Here's mine. |
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Not as tall as my Trane 16i. |
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 ptrowskiGot Helix?
Premium Member
join:2005-03-14
Woodstock, CT |
to Boricua
Is that an extension cord wired into the box on the right? |
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said by ptrowski:Is that an extension cord wired into the box on the right? Sure looks like one  |
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ptrowskiGot Helix?
Premium Member
join:2005-03-14
Woodstock, CT |
ptrowski
Premium Member
2015-Jun-15 1:53 pm
said by Jack in VA:said by ptrowski:Is that an extension cord wired into the box on the right? Sure looks like one Seems legit.  |
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pende_tim
Premium Member
join:2004-01-04
Selbyville, DE |
to ptrowski
One way to get a servicing 110VAC source by the unit, but probably not the best.
Any bets on how he is getting a pseudo "neutral" out there?
LOL |
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Termitess to cowboyro
Anon
2015-Jun-15 3:44 pm
to cowboyro
said by cowboyro:said by Termitess :That's incorrect on the cost savings since everyone's is Different you made like your house 80F while he likes it 68F,My Electric bill last year before i built this house was $270 for 1400SQ the place was built in the 70's,The Total Electric for last year was $3,240-$3800.. my Projected Expense for the Electric Bill since am in the New house which is 1700SQ is $1416-$1600 a savings of $1,824-$2,200 (4years or less this unit will pay for itself.same goes with him,he needs to take his total electric from last years bill and his new month with the unit installed and go from there. Incorrect on both counts. The overall electric bill has no meaning - only the "summer" vs "fall/spring" matters. And as a worst case scenario a upper limit for the usage can be determined - 3 ton 13SEER uses about 2800W, that's $5/day based on 12h/day active compressor time and $0.15/kWh. So the $150/mo figure thrown in was seriously on the high side. Don't know where you get that Above?? My current Electric bill is $102.10, thats $3.50 for Heat-pump hot-water cooking TV etc. Thats why you get a 3 TON 16SHEER 2 STAGE. saves money!! For you and others to tell him to get 13 sheer hes going to get screwed down here in the south. We use alot of Cooling down here from March-December.Florida uses even more Cooling. me i use heating in jan-march. we have two seasons down here in the south SUMMER-WINTER...  Florida one season lolol |
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cowboyro
Premium Member
2015-Jun-15 4:42 pm
said by Termitess :Don't know where you get that Above?? My current Electric bill is $102.10, thats $3.50 for Heat-pump hot-water cooking TV etc. Thats why you get a 3 TON 16SHEER 2 STAGE. saves money!! For you and others to tell him to get 13 sheer hes going to get screwed down here in the south. YOUR current bill is irrelevant and MD isn't quite "in the south" |
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Florida one season lolol