dslreports logo
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc
Search similar:


uniqs
14237
existenz
join:2014-02-12

4 edits

7 recommendations

existenz

Member

Guide to Google Fiber compared to other high speed ISPs

Click for full size
These comparisons are as of January 2017. If something is incorrect, unfairly stated or have something to add, post below or message me and I'll update this post. Rates shown compare ISP rates in Google Fiber (GF) markets and are spot checked but not officially confirmed. This guide does not necessarily contain official info. Check with each ISP to confirm.

Google Fiber
Prices:
- 1Gbit symmetrical (up and download) for $70/month, no install fee, no contract
- 100M symmetrical for $50, no install fee, no contract
- Free Gigabit for certain KC public housing, $15 25/25 for certain low income areas
- Fiber Phone for $10/mo, unlimited US calling, tied to Google Voice service (appears to use Obitalk device)
- See KC options that show experimental TV plans that may make it to other markets

Good:
- Near Gbit speeds across the country (typically over 900M anytime of day)
- High quality TV image, high bitrate for TV (over 15Mbps MPEG4), up to 8 recordings at once
- Phone support usually (not always) better than others, reps actually have problem solving skills
- New Fiber Phone ties into Google Voice service - rings cell, home phones, tablets, computers tied to acct
- Prices are fixed rates, not temporary promotions
- Latency is low across country, typically 1-2ms in local city, 35-40ms from KC to the coasts
- 5M service has same low latency as Gbit, Netflix 'HD' also works fine on 5M
- Dedicated longhaul network just for GF with good peering (allows high speeds/lower latency across country and across other transit networks)
- No monthly usage caps on all plans, modem and WiFi router included in the base rate

Other:
- Live in Kansas City, Provo, Austin, Atlanta, Nashville, Charlotte, Raleigh
- 5M 'free' service no longer marketed but might be still available in KC/Austin if you ask. Existing KC 5M subs will continue for 7 years after install date.
- TV streaming not yet officially working outside home network (will work if you VPN), TV box acts as a Chromecast receiver
- Cannot use 3rd party TV boxes (Tivo, HDHomeRun), first TV box included with TV rate, each additional box $10/mo, Chromecast as a TV extender may come in future
- Had 2 TV outages city wide in last year, one for over an hour - gave free Showtime for a month
- Initial rollout very very slow when entering new market and rate of passing homes less than 100K per year per market
- Went from 150+ channels when first rolling out to now at 220+ channels (including AMC finally), still missing some obscure sports channels, TV rates jumped higher after adding more channels and not having enough critical mass to get good deals from content providers. Consider Sling, PS Vue, etc.
- Only 2 core TV packages offered, Local channels or start with 220 channels
- Google claims they don't target ads or tie other services directly based on GF pipe usage but as with any ISP they do it on/between the G services you use on top of GF pipe (Gmail, Chrome Browser, etc). You could use GF pipe with no Google apps/services and not get Google targeted ads. TV viewing habits targets video ads but you can opt out and clear history. Methinks it should be off by default given TV is a pay service.

TimeWarner/Charter Spectrum
Prices:
- Current Promos in KC:
-- 100/10M $45 standalone internet, includes modem but $5/mo extra for WiFi, $35 install fee
-- 300/20M $90 standalone internet, includes modem but $5/mo extra for WiFi, $200 install fee
-- Lower rates available when bundled with TV/Phone ($30 100/10 with TV/Phone)

Good:
- Generally performs at advertised speeds at long distances (in KC anyway, some Maxx markets may not have enough peering capacity)
- No apparent targeting of ads, but all major ISPs do track your usage
- More obscure sports channels available than GF
- No caps
- Can likely keep promo rates long term if Gbit ISP available to your location, but likely need to threaten to leave

Other:
- No longer offering under 100M service in Maxx markets, TWC used to offer 50M for $30 in KC - it's gone
- Only up to 20Mb uplink max available
- TV quality not nearly as good as GF, much lower bitrate, MPEG4 only for premium channels
- Charges more for some HD channels that GF includes
- Latency not nearly as good/low as GF/ATT

AT&T Gigapower
Prices:
- $70 Gbit in Google Fiber markets, 1 yr contract, no caps
- Around $50 300/300 or 100/100 depending on market, 1TB cap if no TV service, check to confirm
- $30 extra w/out caps depending on service (no cap with TV service in any market)

Good:
- Up to 1Gbit symmetrical (up/download)
- Latency usually nearly good as GF
- Deploying much faster than GF overall (except less homes passed than GF in KC)
- No longer targeting of ads with deep packet inspection, but all major ISPs do track your usage
- ?????

Other:
- Often struggles to perform near Gbit at long distances or peering across other networks, can be well under half depending. The 300M service doesn't have this issue and is a great value if you can get it. It might be 100M available instead of 300M in your area. Worth checking into. Check if a promo rate and rate after promo period.
- Very low bitrate TV quality, one of lowest in industry (Uverse TV, not DirecTV)
- Unlimited data with TV service, potentially 1TB/month cap if no TV, $30/mo extra for no cap

Comcast Gigabit Pro
Seeking input, section under construction...
Prices:
- 2Gbit for $300/month, $1000 install/activation fee, 2 yr contract
- $20/month extra for the $10,000 Juniper switch that comes with the service
- Includes a Netgear WiFi router

Good:
- Essentially Biz class MetroE service available to residential
- No caps
- Performs as advertised on internal network
- Some report ability to do 3Gbit by bonding WAN ports if I understand right

Other:
- Need to be within half mile of fiber node to get service (might be 1/3 mile)
- Need to qualify for service and need 10Gb equipment to take advantage of 2Gb
- Available in all Comcast markets if address meets criteria
- May not consistently perform over 1Gb across other transit/longhaul networks, especially to a single site
- Great article that describes what is involved to install Gbit Pro

Comcast Xfinity 1 Gigabit
Prices:
- 1000/35 for $140/mo, no contract with 1TB cap
- 1000/35 for $70/mo, 3yr contract with no caps depending on market
- 300/25 for $100/mo, no contract, 1TB cap
- 100/10 for $80/mo, no contract, 1TB cap
- 250/25 for $50/mo in KC, 2 yr contract, Unlimited in high competition markets or 1TB cap (check to confirm)
- $50/mo extra for no cap depending on market

Good:
- No apparent targeting of ads, but all major ISPs do track your usage
- Gigabit generally performs near advertised speeds at long distances

Other:
- Not available in all markets yet
- Only up to 35Mb uplink max available
- TV quality not as good as GF, using MPEG4 but lower bitrate and some channels apparently downgraded to 720p
- Charges more for some HD channels that GF includes
- Latency not quite as good/low as GF/ATT but better than Charter/TWC

Comparing other Gbit ISPs to GF - things to look for
- Check if it can really do near Gbit across the country, most are much less at long distances
-- Here are GF speeds/latency across country/world: »GF performance at long distances
- Check equipment rental and obscure fees. GF price includes everything except a few bucks taxes.
- Check the TV quality compared to GFTV, look into bitrate and if MPEG2 or 4, GFTV is 15M+ MPEG4.
- Check TV box features, GFTV is weaker with some features, stronger in others
- Check if there are monthly usage caps and $ after cap, GF has no caps (unlimited)
- Check prices after any promos end, GF rates are as stated

Summary
If you don't need anywhere near a Gbit and not picky on TV image quality, middle tier bundles from non-Google ISPs might be a better deal for you. ATT 300M for about $50 is a decent value if you can get it. If you want/need near a Gbit that performs consistently and highest quality TV image, Google Fiber appears to deliver most consistently. Comcast 2 Gigabit Pro truly a top tier residential service if willing to pay for it, however Comcast Xfinity Gigabit not on par with Google Fiber (uplink/latency).

Technical Comparisons
GF has two technical advantages over other high speed ISPs - they're building a dedicated longhaul network across country not shared with other Google services and effectively dedicated last mile Gbit runs to each household (some cliaim using a variant of WDM-PON/GPON hybrid, could be straight GPON 8:1 split but possibly dedicated wavelength per split, not confirmed) . These allow maintaining near Gbit speeds at long distances and with higher number of active users than others. Other fiber ISPs using GPON (ATT, Centurylink, Frontier, VZ, EPB, muni fiber, etc) are sharing 2.4Gb across 16-32 users and have many services sharing traffic on the longhaul and/or highly dependent on other longhaul carriers with sub-par peering. Cable DOCSIS3.1 Gigabit will share hundreds of users on a 5Gb pipe at first and will have to build fiber closer in to get 10Gbit shared. Comcast Gigabit Pro is a Biz class MetroE network that is an exception - though for more $ and need to be near fiber node.

More here on what playing field looks like with multiple Gbit competitors...
»What happens when you have multi Gigabit ISP competition?
existenz

3 edits

2 recommendations

existenz

Member

I've checked with TWC what prices are after 1yr promo ends and rep said if renting modem from TWC - 50M/$58, 100M/$68, 200M/$78 and 300M/$88 - in addition to modem rental fee. That is for KC area where there is multi-Gigabit competition. Could likely continue promo rate if threatening to leave for competition if it exists - ask for TWC 'retentions' or 'cancellations' dept.

Google Fiber now offering 100/100 for $50 with modem/router included but only for Atlanta market. I've checked if offered in current GF markets and it is not planned. GF no longer offering 'free' 5/1 to Atlanta but still is offering in the first 3 markets (KC/Austin/Provo). Unknown which plans will be offered in future markets - some might still get 'free' 5M option, others $50/100M option - likely not both.

Now that Google Fiber is working with HUD for 'free' Gbit for low income housing, the 'free' 5M might not be offered in future markets unless city is not a HUD target. The 'free' 5M will probably remain in current markets as they are committed for at least a few more years with city agreements.

Have updated original post with above info, will continue to update. Feel free to provide additional input/corrections and I'll update original post.
existenz

2 recommendations

existenz

Member

Why Comcast is afraid of Google Fiber...
»www.cheatsheet.com/gear- ··· =viewall

Digs into a lot of comparisons and claims.
existenz

3 recommendations

existenz

Member

TWC just dropped their rates in KC again, basically down another $5 from last drop. New rates as of 2.25.16...

50/5/$30
100/10/$40
200/20/$50
300/20/$60
300/20 with Triple Play/$90

Doesn't include modem/router and obscure fees but $5 less. The presence of 4 Gbit providers in KC must be putting on the pressure. Competition works.

F100
join:2013-01-15
Durham, NC
Alcatel-Lucent G-010G-A
(Software) pfSense
Pace 5268AC

4 recommendations

F100

Member

Wow. I'm on the $35 50/5 right now on a used SB6121 I bought for $20 from another DSLR user here while I wait for Gigapower to be available for order, and eventually Google fiber. Now I feel like I'm being cheated. Thanks existenz.

Excellent guide by the way. I was thinking about putting something like this together but man, everything ones needs is right here.
existenz
join:2014-02-12

1 edit

1 recommendation

existenz

Member

Checked with TWC again what rate would be after 1 year promo and this rep says it would only go up $5 (not including modem/router), the earlier rep said $28 more. Can probably re-negotiate the promo rate anyway if other Gbit ISP is available.
existenz

existenz

Member

Updated Comcast 1Gbit section per...
»Comcast Gigabit Service Won't Have Caps - If You Sign A Contract [97] comments

Ganthet
join:2009-08-05
Kansas City, MO

1 recommendation

Ganthet

Member

Wow- I know CableLabs is still working on Symmetric speeds, but I thought 3.1 would get them better than 35Mb
viper453
join:2003-03-30
Cincinnati, OH

2 recommendations

viper453 to existenz

Member

to existenz
Cincinnati bell fioptics offers 1 gbits / 250 mbits $75 first 12 months »www.cincinnatibell.com/internet/
existenz
join:2014-02-12

1 recommendation

existenz

Member

Thanks for posting that. This thread is intended for comparing major competitors in planned Google Fiber footprint but may as well post every Gbit ISP out there outside the guide.

KC has 4 Gigabit providers.. GF, ATT Gigapower, CCI/Surewest and a muni 'free' Gbit in North KC called liNKCity. Comcast likely to get Xfinity Gbit in their KC area footprint eventually.

CCI/Surewest in several KC areas offers 1000M/1000M for $70 but doesn't include equipment/fees.
»www.consolidated.com/

LiNKCity in North Kansas City is 'free' 1000M/1000M with $300 activation fee. Casino revenue paid for fiber buildout and a 3rd party ISP operates it. City lets ISP use network to charge market rate for biz class service and pays a small amount per year for fiber maintenance.
»linkcity.org/residential/

somms
join:2003-07-28
Centerville, UT

1 recommendation

somms to existenz

Member

to existenz
»xmission.com/utopia




XMission over Utopia FTTH is currently $35/month for 250Mbps symmetrical or $57/month for 1Gbps

- Unless you pay the upfront charge of $2750 for the cost of the fiber connection and fiber gateway installed in your home, you end up having to pay extra fees: »www.utopianet.org/faq/



- The 1TB cap is actually a soft cap that is not enforced

- Utopia maintains the fiber and equipment (fiber gateway)

- There are well over another half-dozen ISP that can provide service over Utopia besides XMission: »www.utopianet.org/pricelist/



- Although listed as 250Mbps service, speedtests actually test higher @300Mbps:
somms

1 recommendation

somms to existenz

Member

to existenz
Google Fiber’s Brewing Little Secret Exposed: It’s GPON!: »networkmatter.com/2014/0 ··· ts-gpon/

- Forgot to add that Utopia uses active/P2P Ethernet FTTH instead of GPON used by GF if that matters to anyone.
existenz
join:2014-02-12

1 recommendation

existenz

Member

Right, it's GPON to the home but is said to be WDM-PON behind it (though no official source to confirm).

somms
join:2003-07-28
Centerville, UT

1 recommendation

somms

Member

To be clear, the exception to this is the former iProvo network in Utah, which utilizes the legacy active/P2P Ethernet network built years ago under previous ownership, and which Google Fiber bought in April 2013 for $1 (USD).

I always forget about Provo being the exception to the GF rule in NOT using GPON since it is still using the pre-existing IProvo active ethernet network.
existenz
join:2014-02-12

1 recommendation

existenz

Member

Right, understood. Provo is active ethernet, new builds are said to be GPON/WDM-PON hybrid.

F100
join:2013-01-15
Durham, NC
Alcatel-Lucent G-010G-A
(Software) pfSense
Pace 5268AC

1 recommendation

F100 to existenz

Member

to existenz
Until we can get a look inside a Fiber Hut, we won't know exactly how Google has setup the OLT receiving side of the F1 feeder fibers. If they are indeed installing with a low GPON split count of 8:1 as existenz and others have surmised, then it's possible to multiplex those on the back end and essentially feed each subscriber on that split their own GPON speed. Thus the reason for the Hut density in a City like Durham where we have at least 8 huts for 250,000 people.

Isn't the problem with active/P2P Ethernet PON is that you need a large number ports on a switch and a place to aggregate those switches. And then because of the distances in US cities, you would need miles more of fiber to read those switches if you don't locate them remotely. In Europe and Asia the size and the the density of buildings means it's not as costly to do Ethernet PON as you have things closer together and more locations where you could remote locate switches. Cost wise, this probably doesn't make sense when you can do like GPON and use an ONT with passive splits that take up much less space in the field and in the Head-end(Fiber Hut). Large Universities use Ethernet over Single Mode Fiber to wire buildings to the core network. This works fine at a Campus level but once you reach City wide, trying to wire 108 square miles this makes it harder.
existenz
join:2014-02-12

1 recommendation

existenz

Member

This is a post from user Tusker, who appears to work for Cisco...
quote:
Google Fiber uses DWDM-PON and not the GPON or NGPON.
So every user gets one wavelength. they dont use a splitter, instead they use AWG, which splits the wavelength across, instead of sending all the wavelengths to all the split nodes ( like the GPON splitter does). The ONT uses color-less laser, which means, the Optic sensor / laser at the ONT end, can tune itself to the wavelength allocated to it. Also There is not point in using a 1:1 split, as it is just same as Active Ethernet. GFiber uses 1:32 split, so every ONT has its dedicated wavelengths (one Up and One Down). The major problem with DWDM-PON was the color-less ONT. Now the price of those has dropped down drastically and is commercially viable. DWDM-PON does not support the RFOG as G-PON does. G-PON uses one wavelength for Up and one for Down traffic, one for RFOG and another for Telephone line.
SO Migration from G-PON to DWDM-PON is not easy as they cant CO-exist. That is the reason, Verison is going with with a Hybrid of TDM & WDM-PON for NG-PON2.

somms
join:2003-07-28
Centerville, UT

1 recommendation

somms

Member

said by existenz:

This is a post from user Tusker, who appears to work for Cisco...

quote:
Google Fiber uses DWDM-PON and not the GPON or NGPON.
So every user gets one wavelength. they dont use a splitter, instead they use AWG, which splits the wavelength across, instead of sending all the wavelengths to all the split nodes ( like the GPON splitter does). The ONT uses color-less laser, which means, the Optic sensor / laser at the ONT end, can tune itself to the wavelength allocated to it. Also There is not point in using a 1:1 split, as it is just same as Active Ethernet.

If this is true, Google Fiber would be much more like active ethernet than GPON.

Only possible drawback of not using active ethernet with each user having their own dedicated fiber and the redundancy this provides is that instead of a single user being affected by loss of a fiber line, all users being fed after this fiber could possibly be affected whether this be 8 or 32.

F100
join:2013-01-15
Durham, NC
Alcatel-Lucent G-010G-A
(Software) pfSense
Pace 5268AC

1 recommendation

F100

Member

This kind of makes more sense now because it doesn't seem that Google doesn't have the larger Splitter cabinets like AT&T has in GPON. They seem to have a lot of those NAP(Network Access Points) that could contain the AWG splits. These are usually in smaller cabinets or larger ground vaults. It could also explain the model/method of connecting entire ares at once, AKA Fiberhoods.

Regardless of the split, it still makes sense to not have every fiber go back to a hut like active Ethernet. It keeps the feeder fiber counts smaller and more manageable. If you did have a cut, it would be less splicing to fix as well.
F100

1 recommendation

F100 to existenz

Member

to existenz
Existenz, have you been able to figure out what the NAT session limit is on Google Fiber's router? The AT&T Gigapower RG/Router has very low State session table because of the customized firmware AT&T has on it. This is compounded by the fact that you can't do a true bridge mode to use your own router like Google was allowing.

I am curious what performance limitations you have found with Google's router.
existenz
join:2014-02-12

existenz

Member

Don't know the NAT limit. I am using an Asus 68U attached in AP mode so is on same segment as GF router. Have a couple dozen devices between the two routers. The TV boxes also can be WiFi repeaters and also can attach a switch to TV box and get more ports in another room. Haven't run across any performance limits for Ethernet on router itself or via Asus 68U hardwired ports.
existenz

existenz

Member

I've updated the first post with a comparison chart. Let me know if anything incorrect or anything to add.

karpodiem
Hail to The Victors
Premium Member
join:2008-05-20
Troy, MI

karpodiem to existenz

Premium Member

to existenz
This is awesome. Well done, @existenz!
existenz
join:2014-02-12

1 recommendation

existenz

Member

Thanks, could use help with ? items.
wiz8
Premium Member
join:2012-06-22
Olathe, KS

1 recommendation

wiz8 to existenz

Premium Member

to existenz
I'm not sure when it happened but KC now has the 100Mbps plan
existenz
join:2014-02-12

1 recommendation

existenz

Member

said by wiz8:

I'm not sure when it happened but KC now has the 100Mbps plan

Thanks, I see it as an option now. Must have been recent.
existenz

1 recommendation

existenz

Member

ATT claims to pass 1.6M homes with Gigapower. GF probably not much over 500K if even that...
»www.fiercetelecom.com/st ··· 16-04-27
existenz

1 recommendation

existenz

Member

Comcast now offers 2Gb Pro in a few KC burbs, that's now 5 Gbit+ ISPs in KC metro.
»www.xfinity.com/location ··· ore.html
»www.xfinity.com/location ··· the.html

They also have a $50 250M deal with 2 year agreement.

neofate
Caveat Depascor
Premium Member
join:2003-11-11
Birmingham, AL

1 edit

1 recommendation

neofate to existenz

Premium Member

to existenz
TLDR - At bottom

Interesting thread, and forum area -- I'm in Birmingham Alabama,.. in Suburbia (10-20 miles out of city) - Here we have Charter (monopoly) and ATT (DSL/Uverse/Some beginning rollout of Fiber) - who with ADSL just can't compete, yet for Sat preferred customers, people who are just loyal for whatever reason, choose ATT's Broadband -- Typically customers get on average of 5-6Mbps - Uverse runs as high as 24Mbps (ish) in neighborhoods like mine (newish 10 years old) the infrastructure is underground and the utilities are 'new' so they get the U-verse speeds.
I run with Charter's highest tier you can buy.. Ultra - Which is incredibly asymmetrical 100/5 which costs (all said and done) $120ish a month (it's a $100 service + fee's etc). So I'm used to a $100-$120 price tag for Broadband/internet.
I'm in dire need up upload increases/availability. I'm not loyal. Frankly, this area is .. how to put this.. medium to upper income households (IE: My neighborhood consists of 300-500k homes.. ) -- Down the road you have 200-350k homes (brand new).. then in the same area a huge neighborhood (Highland lakes) which have a HUGE footprint of homes from 400k-XX Millions -- Continuing that direction (towards city but still suburbia) there are neighborhoods like Greystone which is another 400K-XX Millions per home,.. and on it goes with about that average for homes. Apartments run on the lower end - $750-850 single bedroom -- It's an affordable area with really rich people mixed in with your 30-40-50k-100k earners (like myself).

As I need the upload speed for everything I do,.. I work in IT (would be a book to describe everything) - and it pains me and excites me to see how close Fiber is getting to where I live.
Huntsville did a bold progressive move with the city deciding to build out fiber on it's own,.. Google Fiber got wind of this and Bam, jumped right in to put GFiber right in that city. Huntsville is about an hour drive from where I live.
Atlanta, of course huge metropolis has Fiber everywhere, including GFiber -- that's about a 2 hour drive to the east. Then , again, ATT's Fiber is rolling out but reports of where it's popping up are obviously tough to find (99% of people don't visit these forums and post about it).

Why did I write all that? Well,.. if anyone has any information, knows a guy, works for a company,.. whatever -- I'd love to know any information, speculation, anything about precisely where I live.

I'd just put my address out here,.. but for safety sake I will put an address that is "close enough" to where I live (basically if they got service, I would as well) -- And hopefully some people have some tidbits to offer on what is coming, when, from who (more than one? ) -- As well as any word about Charter Communications here -- They've been sitting at this 100/5 speed for their highest tier for quite some time now (they don't have anything pushing them/no competition yet.. so not much motivation to upgrade) - So while I'm interested in Fiber for a dramatic change in speeds - even info about when Charter would have higher speeds (even if minimal) at this address/area would also be appreciated.

Address (Not my address,.. again, just a home that if serviced would logically include me in the service offerings.)

1067 Dunnavant Place
Birmingham, Alabama 35242

TLDR: - If you know anything about fiber , or even current charter cable speed increases coming down the pipeline to the above area - I'd be most appreciative of your insight/knowledge)
silbaco
Premium Member
join:2009-08-03
USA

1 recommendation

silbaco to existenz

Premium Member

to existenz
The question is how many subscribers each have. I'd bet Google Fiber has a much higher uptake rate than Gigapower. A lot of people passed by Gigapower probably don't even know it. And I imagine the individuals passed by both are much more likely to subscribe to Google Fiber than Gigapower.