Topic 'Re: Typical newbie linux questions' in forum 'Unix and Linux' - dslreports.com

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Tue, 15 Sep 2015 17:05:37 EDT

Wily_One posted : OP: Get VirtualBox and you can try out Linux and other OSes all you want, without risk of affecting your main OS. The biggest resource for running a VM is RAM, so if you have 8GB or more of RAM, you can easily create a VM with 2-4GB.

I have Xubuntu 14.04.3 LTS running in a VirtualBox VM.

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Tue, 15 Sep 2015 14:32:05 EDT

jimkyle posted :

said by Sentinel:

Link for Xubuntu?

»xubuntu.org/getxubuntu/

It's supported in the Ubuntu forums, along with all the other variations. I think you'll like it.

I did remove Abiword, the default word processor, and installed LibreOffice in its place, because I correspond with lots of folk who still use Microsoft Office and LibreOffice seems to be quite a bit more compatible with it. I also removed Transmission and Pidgin, which are default torrent and char applications respectively. Aside from that my installation is pretty much out-of-the-box except for adding a mail server and FTP server to support my little side business...
--
Jim Kyle

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Tue, 15 Sep 2015 13:49:14 EDT

Sentinel posted :

said by jimkyle:

All of which is far too much for me.

Me too. :) All I need is an OS, text editor, browser, and other stuff as it becomes needed. Mostly I just don't like stuff running unless I run it. I like secure. I like to know what's going on and be able to explain it. And I like default settings and files in default places so that when guys like you give me help my files are the same ones you have and are in the same places.

Link for Xubuntu? ;)

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Tue, 15 Sep 2015 11:46:40 EDT

Ian1 posted :

said by Sentinel:

I think I might be growing beyond Mint. I'm guessing Ubuntu has less junk so is it possible to download a live CD like I did for Mint and try it out so that I don't have to install it and destroy my current Mint install which I might regret.

I think we all go through a phase of trying out a million distros till one feels right. But my current attitude on it is to use it as an OS for practical purposes. If it does the job with the browser I want and other software I use, it becomes unimportant that it's even Linux that's running.

But I still play with others in a Virtual Machine when the mood strikes.
--
Professor, without knowing precisely what the danger is, would you say it's time for our viewers to crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside? K. Brockman

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Tue, 15 Sep 2015 11:31:35 EDT

rolfp posted : »www.mageia.org/en-gb/downloads/

I've used Mandrake and it's descendants for more than 15 years. Mageia is good and might be an option for you. Live versions link from that page.

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Tue, 15 Sep 2015 00:07:15 EDT

jimkyle posted : I'll definitely recommend that you try the Xubuntu variant; I've used it for 8 years now and find it gives me great control of everything. The mainline Ubuntu version these days seems to be overloaded with eye candy, and somewhat bloated (by default, it has a torrent utility for file sharing, music players, webcam support, and so on). Its stated goal is to be a full replacement for Windows, and it's loaded with applications that pretty much duplicate all the stuff in current Windows offerings.

All of which is far too much for me.

Over the weekend I installed two versions of Mint 17.2 (Cinnamon and Mate) in virtual machines so that I could become familiar with them. Xubuntu has quite a bit more individual control made easy that does either of those. I suspect that you have Mate; the text editor in Cinnamon is gedit. In Xubuntu, the default is mousepad. However I really prefer Geany, which is oriented toward programming but has many features that help in dealing with php and css files for web development. It's available in the repositories.

Best use the Long Term Support (LTS) versions since they have support for more than 8 months.
--
Jim Kyle

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Mon, 14 Sep 2015 23:56:17 EDT

Black Box posted :

said by Sentinel:

If installing Ubuntu, make sure you disable/remove the Amazon lens. It is one of the reasons Mint is so popular.
--
Keep It Safe, Stupid!
Yes, I CanChat. Can You?

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Mon, 14 Sep 2015 23:17:58 EDT

Kerodo posted :

said by Sentinel:

Most definitely yes. You can download a live dvd of Ubuntu and when you run it, you'll have the option of either installing Ubuntu or running it live. Have fun! :)

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Mon, 14 Sep 2015 18:30:38 EDT

Sentinel posted : I think I might be growing beyond Mint. I'm guessing Ubuntu has less junk so is it possible to download a live CD like I did for Mint and try it out so that I don't have to install it and destroy my current Mint install which I might regret.

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Mon, 07 Sep 2015 21:49:51 EDT

Black Box posted : Well, it works in Gnome too, you just have to have the KDE libraries installed. Haven't tried without KDE installed, but aptitude will likely automatically install the correct dependencies too. Might be a somewhat sizable download though.
--
Keep It Safe, Stupid!
Yes, I CanChat. Can You?

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Mon, 07 Sep 2015 17:02:34 EDT

rolfp posted :

said by jimkyle:

use the Gimp to crop to just what I really want!

Also, in KDE, for viewing, cropping, resizing, rotating (90° at a time), Gwenview is a lot lighter than gimp and I rely on it for, mostly, processing pics downloaded from my camera with gtkam.

[rolf@p8z68 ~]$ rpm -qi gwenviewName        : gwenviewEpoch       : 2Version     : 4.14.3Release     : 2.mga5Architecture: x86_64Install Date: Tue 30 Jun 2015 07:13:52 AM PDTGroup       : Graphics/ViewersSize        : 877111License     : GPLv2Signature   : RSA/SHA1, Mon 18 May 2015 01:50:16 PM PDT, Key ID b742fa8b80420f66Source RPM  : gwenview-4.14.3-2.mga5.src.rpmBuild Date  : Mon 18 May 2015 01:44:14 PM PDTBuild Host  : ecosse.mageia.orgRelocations : (not relocatable)Packager    : ennael Vendor      : Mageia.OrgURL         : http://www.kde.orgSummary     : Fast and easy to use image viewer for KDEDescription :Gwenview is a fast and easy to use image viewer/browser for KDE.All common image formats are supported, such as PNG(including transparency),JPEG(including EXIF tags and lossless transformations), GIF, XCF (Gimpimage format), BMP, XPM and others. Standard features include slideshow,fullscreen view, image thumbnails, drag'n'drop, image zoom, full networktransparency using the KIO framework, including basic file operations andbrowsing in compressed archives, non-blocking GUI with adjustable views.Gwenview also provides image and directory KParts components for use e.g. inKonqueror. Additional features, such as image renaming, comparing,converting, and batch processing, HTML gallery and others are provided by theKIPI image framework.

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Mon, 07 Sep 2015 16:35:23 EDT

jimkyle posted : As BlitzenZeus says, the alt-printscreen combination will get just the currently active window rather than the full desktop. However I still do exactly what you did -- use the Gimp to crop to just what I really want! For some jobs it's overkill, but the more you use it the more you will find out it can do. A real Gimp expert (which I'm not yet by any means, I've only been doing graphics since 1990) can do anything with the Gimp that can be dome using PhotoShop!
--
Jim Kyle

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Mon, 07 Sep 2015 12:00:07 EDT

BlitzenZeus posted : That also includes the alt+printscreen command for the current app.

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Mon, 07 Sep 2015 10:26:20 EDT

Sentinel posted : Yeah, I found that print screen thing. Better than Windows ;) But it gets the entire screen. I used to Irfanview and crop to only the relevant parts. Don't need the entire desktop screen grab. So I end up opening up Gimp and cropping it. Gimp seems like overkill though to just crop a pic.

And in the updater I have it set now to not start at boot and then once a day I just run it myself and check to see if there is anything new.

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Mon, 07 Sep 2015 09:58:05 EDT

jimkyle posted :

said by Sentinel:

I would do a screen shot to show what mine looks like but I am using it right now and I haven't learned how to do that yet

In most distros based on Debian, which includes Ubuntu and thus Mint, you can get a screenshot by pressing the "Print Screen" key. That's much simpler than going through Gimp.

In Xubuntu the update checks are done by "Software Updater" and it offers the options of "Never," "daily," or "weekly" with separate settings for security updates and for "others." I have both set to daily, which is often enough. Every half hour simply wastes some of your bandwidth...
--
Jim Kyle

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Sun, 06 Sep 2015 19:13:07 EDT

Sentinel posted : I don't think this thing needs to check every 30 minutes for an update. I don't think this OS updates that often does it? That wold be worse than MS ;) I just see no reason for it to check automatically. I can check for myself when I want to. I just don't like the idea of my PC talking to other PCs without me knowing it. Just an old habit and I like it. I have never forgotten to check for updates and I don't think I am going to start now.

But we digress. It's not just the updates. I was just using that as an example. I want to control the traffic (good or bad) that is going on.

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Sun, 06 Sep 2015 17:47:52 EDT

Black Box posted : By design there is a big difference in checking for updates. Linux merely pulls the list of packages available on the server for a distribution and release. Then the system itself decides if anything needs to be updated.

The only information leaked is the distribution and the release. Windows equivalent: "I'm running XP 32 bits". And the information is distributed amongst multiple mirrors, many having no relation with the distribution creator, apart of being a mirror. That is providing space and bandwidth. Most are non-profits, universities and research facilities such as NASA and LLNL. You could become a mirror too if you want it.

Only when deciding to update a specific package one of the mirrors would know that you downloaded the package. They wouldn't know if the package was actually installed though. I very much doubt that any of them is keeping tabs on who does what. The most I think they might care is which packages are downloaded more.
--
Keep It Safe, Stupid!
Yes, I CanChat. Can You?

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Sun, 06 Sep 2015 15:57:55 EDT

Bill_MI posted : The difference in update managers is Mint vs. Ubuntu. Mint adds their own with the concept of "levels" 1 thru 5 where 1 is routinely safe to 5 which is most risky. I recall all kernel updates are 5, even security updates, which caused some ruckus and I think the settings now include a security update override. You can set what levels show and what levels get checked by default.

Mint uses Synaptic to load software because they do not like Ubuntu's "Software Center" approach. I use Synaptic for everything BUT... Mint had changed that, too. I particularly didn't like Mint's changes in Synaptic so hacked the Ubuntu version in when I ran Mint last year.

Mint will tell you they are a lot more protective of new users. Personally, I think they're a little overboard on that but I can't become a true new user again. They should have some good help in their apps, too.

Anyway, you should like PrintScreen (desktop) and Alt+PrintScreen (window) directly saving the graphic without the need to paste it into a graphics app. :-)

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Sun, 06 Sep 2015 14:29:20 EDT

Fraoch posted :

said by Sentinel:

I would do a screen shot to show what mine looks like but I am using it right now and I haven't learned how to do that yet :)

CTRL+ALT+Print Screen will cause the screen to flash and put the currently active window into the clipboard plus put a copy in /home/[user]/Pictures titled "Screenshot from [timestamp].png".

Wait! I think I did it using Gimp. ;)

Well after I do the above, I paste it into GIMP because I usually have to compress it or convert it to .JPG anyway, so you can also do it straight from there. :)

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Sun, 06 Sep 2015 11:53:25 EDT

Sentinel posted : I don't have the same window that you are showing. Mine is called update manager and it was set to 30 minutes in the auto-refresh tab. I don't have drop down boxes like you show.

I would do a screen shot to show what mine looks like but I am using it right now and I haven't learned how to do that yet :)

Wait! I think I did it using Gimp. ;)

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Sun, 06 Sep 2015 11:50:37 EDT

shdesigns posted : I turn everything off that is not needed.

Updates I do manually. I prefer to see what is being updated.

Have been running linux since early 1996. Used to be after an install you got a machine that just gave a command prompt or a simple X desktop. You had to turn on features you wanted. I had a linux firewall box for several years.

Check what services are running. Have not used the *buntu variants but there has to be a service manager somewhere. I mange through the command prompt so cant help much.

That is one reason my current machines are Debian. It is quite a lean install. Still there were some services I did not want running on my embedded boards.

I have never had an outgoing firewall on the servers here. I do go through the config on anything that is exposed to the internet. As an example, my web server only allows HEAD and GET and only one dir has CGI enabled. SSH on an odd port and no root login allowed. Nothing else is exposed. Also use failtoban.

Security has more to do about knowing what is going on rather than running firewalls or app trackers.

Live CD's are good for the look and feel (but will be slow.)

Before I settled on Debian I used to run Slackware, Red Hat, Fedora then Gentoo. When I gave up on Gentoo, I took a test box and installed several distros. Just installed, tried, then wiped it and try another. Looked at how easy they were to manage. Also how easy updates were to do. One of the distros I tried broke things as soon as I applied updates (one of the lesser used *buntus.) Slackware would not even boot (stupid Lilo .) Debian just worked.

Installs are much easier than they used to be. Back at the start it was a few dozen floppies and updates were completely manual. Now, it is easy to just try an install even if you don't plan on keeping it.
--
Scott Henion

Embedded Systems Consultant,

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Sun, 06 Sep 2015 11:38:44 EDT

Ian1 posted :

said by Sentinel:

I see that they Update Manager runs at start up and is set to run every 30 minutes by default. I'm guessing that it connects to Linux Mint by default; a site that I trust as I am using their OS. This seems similar to Microsoft Windows Update I'm guessing.

You set where it looks for updates. You can change it to a more local mirror if you like.

And you can change how often it checks too. Never is an option. This is the settings with Ubuntu/Mate, but checking every 30 minutes sounds excessive. I doubt it's really set to that often in Mint. And Mint uses the same repositories as Ubuntu.

[att=1]
--
Professor, without knowing precisely what the danger is, would you say it's time for our viewers to crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside? K. Brockman

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Sun, 06 Sep 2015 11:25:12 EDT

Sentinel posted : Thank you both. That helps tremendously in my understanding of this. I'll read more on those and check them out. I am very familiar with firewalls, rules and how they work so I think I'll be able to get it if I read a bit about it. Sounds like it should do what I need,

It's not just securing things. I'm sure that default Linux is fairly secure. It's also privacy. I don't like things talking behind my back ;) even if it is to Linux Mint itself. I may allow it but I like to have the choice to do so.

For example: first thing:
I see that they Update Manager runs at start up and is set to run every 30 minutes by default. I'm guessing that it connects to Linux Mint by default; a site that I trust as I am using their OS. This seems similar to Microsoft Windows Update I'm guessing.

I'm guessing that if I change that from every 30 minutes to zero then it won't auto check for updates. Am I right? Also if I go to the Startup Manager and I uncheck it from starting up at system boot then it won't run unless I manually run it right?

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Sun, 06 Sep 2015 09:47:45 EDT

jimkyle posted :

said by Sentinel:

So to that end please explain what are iptables? What is UFX? What is AppArmor?

In order, "iptables" is the name of the built-in firewall of the Linux kernel. By default it does nothing at all, but it has the capability to block ALL incoming and outgoing traffic. To use this capability, you (or someone else) can write "rules" which then go into the table, being loaded each time the system powers up. It takes very few such rules to lock a system down almost completely.

The general approach most folk use is to block all traffic in both directions as the default, then insert rules to allow desired traffic in or out. The system examines the rules from the front of the table toward the back, and when one is satisfied normally does not look any deeper. Thus the first rule that a packet matches ends the search. All traffic in and out consists of a stream of data packets, and each is examined individually. If you have a number of rules things can get complicated, but it initially appears to be much more complex than it actually is.

UFW is the "Uncomplicated FireWall" introduced by Ubuntu; it's really just a front-end to the iptables capabilities and adds a large batch of rules to sort traffic out behind the scenes. You tell it to allow a port or an IP address, or deny same, and it writes the rules to do so.

AppArmor is much more complex, and works at a different level of your system (UFW and iptables work at the level of the network adapter itself; AppArmor and SELinux operate at the kernel's process-scheduler level). It uses rules to control the actual execution of individual programs. Most distributions these days include a library of rules for the programs that they include, and install them during the boot process. You can tweak the rules as you like, but it's quite easy to totally disable a favorite program by such tweaks. I've avoided doing so -- iptables itself has been totally adequate for me for many years now, and the only infection I've had came from my own stupidity in leaving a route open (it's now closed) for the invader.

Out of the box, any of the distributions you're considering will be more tightly locked up than anything you've been using in the past. You'll still be at risk from malware that exploits flaws in mail programs and web browsers, but very little of that will be able to take over your complete system, and you WILL be able to easily blacklist IP addresses that threaten you.
--
Jim Kyle

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Sun, 06 Sep 2015 09:43:24 EDT

Velnias posted : AppArmor ("Application Armor") is a Linux kernel security module that allows the system administrator to associate a security profile with each program, which restricts the capabilities of that program.
»wiki.ubuntu.com/AppArmor

IPTABLES allows a system administrator to configure the tables provided by the Linux kernel firewall and the chains and rules it stores.
»help.ubuntu.com/communit ··· lesHowTo

UFW - Uncomplicated Firewall. Command line helper for IPTABLES. Makes IPTABLES management a lot easier. Has GUI version - GUFW.
»help.ubuntu.com/community/UFW

For every bit to control you need to get familiar with Linux. Contrary to Windows, in Linux there are few ( if any ) really unneeded services running.

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Sun, 06 Sep 2015 08:38:30 EDT

Sentinel posted : OK, please forgive my ignorance but I'm going to need a little more to understand this. Here is what I am trying to accomplish. My goal is to be able to see and control what programs on my PC are communicating outbound without my express permission. More of a control thing than a security thing per se, although I see control as a part of security.

For example, by default Windows is set to contact Windows Update and download and install updates by itself with no user intervention. I usually turn this off and update myself manually individual updates that I determine are needed or not. Many would say that self updating is more secure but I prefer the control. Incidentally it appears that Linux Mint also-runs an auto-updater by default.

So to that end please explain what are iptables? What is UFX? What is AppArmor?

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Sun, 06 Sep 2015 03:36:04 EDT

Velnias posted : Forgot to tell about lsof
»www.catonmat.net/blog/un ··· es-lsof/

It is a command line tool, but works well for checking application activity.

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Sat, 05 Sep 2015 21:31:36 EDT

BlitzenZeus posted : As already said software application firewalls like ZA are not true firewalls. I was using firewalls before ZA was around, but application firewalls were popular with windows noobs after the internet worms/messenger spam when microsoft stupidly still didn't have a real firewall in windows NT(xp/2k). After xp sp2, and vista they became far less popular as they were not needed by many anymore. Now most are just bloatware in some security suite.

Try to stop thinking of linux in terms of windows, I'm not saying you should believe the the elitists that linux/osx/etc is immune by any means, however don't expect to find a possible variety of user-friendly solutions you might have expected with windows. Hell it wasn't until a few years ago that I could actually use a live dvd with my nvidia card on my old system, and I would have to install the proprietary drivers first after being installed to use the desktop environment. Don't get me started on the horrors of pulseaudio when it first came out, and some still refuse to use it today.
--
I distrust those people who know so well what god wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires- Susan B. Anthony
Yesterday we obeyed kings, and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to the truth- Kahlil G.

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Sat, 05 Sep 2015 21:08:39 EDT

Velnias posted :

said by Sentinel:

So firewalls are not a common option on Linux machines? OK, well then is there a way for me to tell when a program tries to communicate out?

So called application firewalls - no. Firewall as advanced statefull packet filter - normally is always the part of a Linux kernel.

To control application outbound communication is a workaround - starting application as a member of group, which is alowed/forbidden to communicate via iptables. With help of AppArmor it is possible too to control application network activity.

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Sat, 05 Sep 2015 18:17:11 EDT

Ian1 posted :

said by Sentinel:

So firewalls are not a common option on Linux machines? OK, well then is there a way for me to tell when a program tries to communicate out?

They are very common. You can use UFW or many graphical front-ends for UFW which is a friendlier way of managing Iptables.

You can fairly easily set it up to block all in/out and allow only certain processes on certain ports.
--
Professor, without knowing precisely what the danger is, would you say it's time for our viewers to crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside? K. Brockman

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Sat, 05 Sep 2015 18:13:47 EDT

Sentinel posted : Fraoch,
Thanks. I'll check that out.

Velnias,
So firewalls are not a common option on Linux machines? OK, well then is there a way for me to tell when a program tries to communicate out?

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Sat, 05 Sep 2015 15:35:04 EDT

Velnias posted :

said by Sentinel:

Can I do the same thing with Linux Mint Mate? Is there a firewall I can use?

There is no simple way to control outbound connections. Linux developers don't care about such thing, because always can check source code and find offending part. But if you really desperate for outbound control you better learn iptables and/or AppArmor.

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Sat, 05 Sep 2015 15:13:00 EDT

Fraoch posted :

said by Sentinel:

2. Mint Mate seems to install a lot of programs by default that I am never going to use. (Honestly I don't do much with my PC anyways) Can I uninstall them? Does uninstalling stuff leave behind droppings all over your PC like in Windows, or is it a cleaner uninstall in Linux?

I usually uninstall things in Synaptic, which is just a front end for apt-get. In Synaptic, if you right-click on an installed package, you get several options - one is "Mark for Removal", another is "Mark for Complete Removal". "Mark for Complete Removal" is what you want, it deletes everything, including configuration files.

Note that as you go about marking packages for removal, some dependencies will get marked for removal as well if no other programs require them. Synaptic will tell you which dependencies will get removed but these get the default "Mark for Removal", leaving the configuration files. You can find these by clicking on the "S" field, which will sort by status. The completely removed packages sort to the top while the partially removed packages will sort under them. Simply CTRL+click the first and last one and right-click to mark for complete removal.

Once all the packages you want to remove are marked properly, hit the "Apply" button and it will process them all.

BTW be careful here - some packages may remove critical components along with them. If you mark a package for removal and a huge list of dependencies comes up with some critical-looking things, STOP. Linux is smarter than Windows, most of the optional packages don't run in the background.

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Sat, 05 Sep 2015 14:53:19 EDT

GraysonPeddi posted : I suppose you can do an Ubuntu Server 15.04 install and sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get install mate-desktop-environment-core from there.

It's a long shot, but it should be very minimal and help keep your computer lean and clean. People who are new to Linux probably will go for a fully-fledged Ubuntu/MATE installation, which would include LibreOffice, Firefox, and Thunderbird; everything they need to get their work done.

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Sat, 05 Sep 2015 14:29:48 EDT

Sentinel posted : Well I tried some live CDs and I think I like the clean look of Mate. Of course being that I am now a Linux user for about 5 minutes I may end up switching to something else after a while. So I am going to go for it and do a complete install on a test machine I have laying around. But I do see a few things I am going to want to nail down fairly quickly.

1. I absolutely hate my PC or any programs on my PC communicating out to anyone anywhere unless I specifically allow it. I have become adept at stopping this behavior in Windows by turning stuff off, disabling stuff and running a firewall that blocks all outbound unless I specifically have a rule to allow it. This firewall logs all outbound attempts so I can see just what is trying to get out and then I can decide to set up a rule to allow it or deny it permanently. Or I can find the offending program and disable it.

Can I do the same thing with Linux Mint Mate? Is there a firewall I can use?

2. Mint Mate seems to install a lot of programs by default that I am never going to use. (Honestly I don't do much with my PC anyways) Can I uninstall them? Does uninstalling stuff leave behind droppings all over your PC like in Windows, or is it a cleaner uninstall in Linux?

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Sat, 05 Sep 2015 10:24:17 EDT

Bill_MI posted : Thanks for the kind words. I will add one thing and this is strictly speaking out-of-the-box. Mint's Mate is not configured to my liking. Mint adds their own menu which I never cared for although it's a popular feature Mint can be proud of. For me, it's too Win7-like so many love it.

I use Ubuntu-Mate which comes very close to *old* Ubuntu (10.04 to be specific).

A lot of this is moot since with experience you can make one like the other by tweaking. But if you look at both, see if we agree? :-)

EDIT: And 1/2 the battle is lingo. Mate doesn't use a system tray they use "panels" and Ubuntu-Mate defaults to one on top and one on bottom. It is my preference but you may not like it.

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Sat, 05 Sep 2015 10:11:49 EDT

orion940 posted : Its going to come down to which you like the best. The look and feel, how the updates go, the applications available, etc. Everyone has a favorite for different reasons. I use Kubuntu because 1) it works out of the box with minimal tinkering; 2) I like the interface and 3) I haven't had uptime issues. The live CD's are the best way to see if you like the interface, experience will guide you through the rest.

O.
--
Windsor, Home of the Decorative Zamboni

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Sat, 05 Sep 2015 09:46:55 EDT

Sentinel posted : Best answer ever ;) Thanks. I'll try live CD to check stuff out but it is sounding more and more like I might like Mate or XFCE. After your post I might try Mate first. Now to go find it and start reading ;)

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Sat, 05 Sep 2015 06:21:09 EDT

Bill_MI posted : You sound an awful lot like me in these points :-) ...

said by Sentinel:

A personal note if it helps ... I am what you would describe as a "lean computer". IOW I am the kind of guy that installs Windows and immediately starts turning off everything that is not necessary for Windows to run

You'll be amazed how a full-featured distro loaded with apps will take about 4-6GB. Last I looked, Windows was 7 times that.

Something to keep in mind. If you uninstall something installed by default, like Thunderbird, it may require you uninstall "Mate Desktop" which can make you gasp. It turns out it doesn't matter if you uninstall the desktop which is a phantom package that depends on (requires) all those default packages like Thunderbird. Hope that makes sense.

said by Sentinel:

I use the old Windows 95 theme...

Mate and XFCE probably closest. Cinnamon is more like recent Windows. I speak as a very XP-in-classic-mode user and use Mate pretty much everywhere.

said by Sentinel:

I've never cared for shinny baubles that pop up all the time.

While you could spend a career tweaking KDE to do anything you like, it tends to default to exactly what you and I don't like. I avoid it.

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Sat, 05 Sep 2015 00:27:40 EDT

Black Box posted :

said by Sentinel:

Anyway if I am right then is Cinnamon or Mate or KDE just a "theme" on top of Mint that just changes the way things look? In other words there is no real difference between them other than the way they look; or is it deeper than that? Because I am trying to figure out which one to download as many people have suggested Mint but there is no "Mint". You have to pick one of these desktop themes of Mint to download.

It is deeper than that. They even use different frameworks: Qt (C++) for KDE and GTK (C) for the others. Windows uses MFC (C++). Cinnamon and Mate are basically different versions of Gnome and XFCE/LXDE are loosely based on Gnome.

Qt had some licensing issues, but they are resolved now and I find it very easy to work on (even in Windows). GTK has the reputation of being more verbose, so more things can go wrong if you miss certain steps. Both frameworks are mature and stable though.

To make things more confusing, there are the window managers that handle the actual windows: Openbox, Fluxbox, Compriz, Enlightenment and so on. The good thing, they matter only if you want to tweak your system to the max, otherwise use whatever comes as the default and don't loose any sleep over it. Well, you asked for it.

The desktop/toolbar/notification widgets tend not to work across desktops (e.g the sound widget from KDE won't work in Cinnamon or viceversa), but each one has a full set of widgets. Quirky/novelty widgets tend to be linked to one desktop or another though.

The good news is that most application can run under all desktops, as the libraries for any one desktop can be loaded in all other. Case and point: To manage packets and updates I usually use aptitude in a terminal window. Powerful, but searching sucks. When I need advanced browsing or searching I use either KPackageKit (from KDE) or Synaptic (from Gnome). Both are less powerful, but each has its own search features I like.

You can install multiple desktops and chose between them at login time. I did this until I've chosen KDE. Nowdays I don't bother installing multiple desktops unless I have a good reason to. And I do have at least a computer with multiple desktops installed.
--
Keep It Safe, Stupid!
Yes, I CanChat. Can You?

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Fri, 04 Sep 2015 21:38:40 EDT

shdesigns posted : Have done a few Debian installs recently.

That came with gnome but since it is on an old laptop I also installed XFCE and LXDE. Both work well and I seem to like LXDE better.

I see no reason fro these distros tailored to just one desktop. You can install and uninstall them as needed.
--
Scott Henion

Embedded Systems Consultant,

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Fri, 04 Sep 2015 18:50:35 EDT

Kerodo posted : Xfce is more minimal and simplistic. Usually somewhat less apps, but I'd have to double check that. You can install anything you want later anyhow from the repo's. Xfce is lighter for sure. I'd recommend checking out the live cd/dvd of each, and see which GUI you prefer. It'll also give you an idea of which apps come with each out of the box.

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Fri, 04 Sep 2015 18:43:44 EDT

Sentinel posted : Thanks all. I think I might try the XFCE first as it says that it is the lightest. But since many noobs like Cinnamon is there any downside to going with XFCE?
I did not know about the live CD thing and I will try that to see what it looks like. This is all going to go on an old PC that I have that has 2 hard drives. One obviously has Windows on it now and the other has nothing. Te plan is to install Linux on that one.

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Fri, 04 Sep 2015 18:00:29 EDT

jimkyle posted :

said by Sentinel:

Anyway if I am right then is Cinnamon or Mate or KDE just a "theme" on top of Mint that just changes the way things look?

It's more like the differences between the Win95 GUI, the Win98 GUI, The WinXP look, the Vista look, and Win7. Ubuntu itself was originally based on the Gnome desktop environment (DE), and soon after it appeared the KDE DE was added to create Kubuntu. Later, XFCE joined the list of options to create Xubuntu. Then Mint came along to make things even simpler for folk migrating from Windows.

When the mainline Ubuntu embraced Unity in place of Gnome, Mint began offering other options, leading to the list of choices you now see. Any one of the three should work equally well for you, but the tricks for configuration you learn along the way will be different for each of them, and suggestions you find in the help forums may or may not work properly on your system since not everyone is specific as to what DE they use themselves.

Specifically from my experience with Xubuntu, you'll find posts on the web about using Nautilus and Gedit, but my system has Thunar and Mousepad instead. (The first of these are file managers, and the second are text editors; KDE will be different since it normally uses Kedit as the text editor.)

Trying several, via "Live CD" operation (which can be done with flash drives as well as with CDs), is the best way to decide which you like best.
--
Jim Kyle

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Fri, 04 Sep 2015 17:54:59 EDT

Velnias posted : Linux is newer UNIX, created from scratch. BTW FreeBSD ( not a Linux, but kind of open sourced old Unix ) is simpler and cleaner than most Linux distributions. Just less polished for desktop use ( not the case with customized FreeBSD - PC-BSD ).

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Fri, 04 Sep 2015 17:21:16 EDT

Uraki posted : You might want to visit »distrowatch.com and look around/download & try various distros before deciding on one.

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Fri, 04 Sep 2015 15:15:51 EDT

Kerodo posted :

said by Sentinel:

For simplicity I am thinking of going with Mint. If I understand correctly Mint is a layer on top of Ubuntu? Am I right? I don't know exactly what that layer is called because s I understood it Linux itself is really just a layer on top of Unix right?

Anyway if I am right then is Cinnamon or Mate or KDE just a "theme" on top of Mint that just changes the way things look? In other words there is no real difference between them other than the way they look; or is it deeper than that? Because I am trying to figure out which one to download as many people have suggested Mint but there is no "Mint". You have to pick one of these desktop themes of Mint to download.

So which Linux would be right for me?

If you want something light, then Mint with XFCE is probably good for you. Mint is based on the Ubuntu core, but with different desktop UI's. MATE, Cinnamon, Xfce etc are different desktop UI's. It just depends on which one you like best. Cinnamon is my favorite, MATE is nice too, both are similar to the familiar Windows UI and menu system. Ubuntu comes standard with the Unity UI, which many people didn't/don't like.

You could probably like Mint Cinnamon or MATE or Xfce. You can download the ISO's and burn to DVD, then boot off the DVD and take a look at each one "live" before actually installing.

Re: Typical newbie linux questions

Fri, 04 Sep 2015 14:57:57 EDT

Exodus posted : Mint is Ubuntu, but packaged with a bunch of normal applications that you use every day, so you have all the things you would normally use right away. Ubuntu packages work on Mint.

I would strongly suggest getting Mint first and then going from there. You can use as little (none) or as much of the console as you want. You can do the majority of the tasks necessary with the GUI. It's easier to get around than in Win8/10.
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A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK

Typical newbie linux questions

Fri, 04 Sep 2015 14:24:32 EDT

Sentinel posted : I would describe as "advanced amateur" like most DSLR members. I've been around since DOS and built my own PC's, was part of the overclocking craze and dabbled in Linux twice over the years but ended up coming back to Windows for the most part.

Now I want to give Linux a real try and start the path to getting away from Windows, but I have a few questions on my path. Let me see if I understand a few things first.

For simplicity I am thinking of going with Mint. If I understand correctly Mint is a layer on top of Ubuntu? Am I right? I don't know exactly what that layer is called because s I understood it Linux itself is really just a layer on top of Unix right?

Anyway if I am right then is Cinnamon or Mate or KDE just a "theme" on top of Mint that just changes the way things look? In other words there is no real difference between them other than the way they look; or is it deeper than that? Because I am trying to figure out which one to download as many people have suggested Mint but there is no "Mint". You have to pick one of these desktop themes of Mint to download.

A personal note if it helps ... I am what you would describe as a "lean computer". IOW I am the kind of guy that installs Windows and immediately starts turning off everything that is not necessary for Windows to run. I use the old Windows 95 theme (or lack of a theme would be more accurate) and disable all services and everything running in the background that I can because stability and performance have always been the most important thing to me. I've never cared for shinny baubles that pop up all the time. I like to do things manually and not have things doing things for me in the background all the time. I am perfectly capable of updating stuff myself :)
So which Linux would be right for me?