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General State of Satellite Internet?When I worked for a local WISP, until about 6-12 months before I left, I would routinely tell people that, due to latency, reliability of the connection, consistency of quality, and customer service, our 1 Mbps plan was better than any satellite's 5 Mbps plan. This was my honest opinion. After visiting some recent personal customers, I was blown away with the performance I was seeing from Exede and Dish. One of the customers said that her Dish connection would experience connectivity issues during rain, but the Exede customer said that her connection didn't go down even during bad weather. So I would like some thoughts from the dslreports.com community regarding the general state of things today. Of course FPS games and such are still not viable on a satellite connection, but what about everything else? Is connectivity still the issue it used to be? Has latency for things like Skype gotten any better? Are packet drops an issue? How consistent does the connection stay at 3 Mbps or more on any plan? What about 10 Mbps or more? Many rural WISPs find it hard to offer anything more than 5 Mbps on their best plan, with some not even achieving that; are they becoming less and less relevant? Any other thoughts? Hopefully this is an okay forum location to post this topic in. Full disclosure: I am asking so that I can update a blog post I wrote for my low-traffic business website, and I intend to post the link to this forum discussion. The post is here: » www.pc-repairamedic.com/ ··· ounties/ |
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Keep It Simple:
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N4STJim Premium Member join:2005-11-25 Jersey, VA
1 recommendation |
to NissiAdonai4
I have been with Wildblue/Exede for over 10 years. In the beginning I was very happy when I got 0.5 Mbps, now I smile when I get +20 Mbps. I have only had one service call in 10 years and that was to upgrade from Wildblue to Exede. You will always lose connection if it rains hard enough. Here in Virginia that is a couple of times a week during the summer, but then DirecTV drops out also, though not quite as easily. Once you get past the latency issues, you have to deal with the data caps. Life is pretty restricted for most of us on satellite Internet. I am on the Liberty 18 plan, which is 18 GB per monthly billing period. The real issue for me is congestion. Those 20 Mbps speeds in the morning drop to 1-3 Mbps in the evenings and sometimes even lower. Satellite Internet has been great for my family, but if I could get a reliable 3 Mbps DSL, I would switch. |
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to DrStrangLov
I don't get your meaning, DrStrangLov. Maybe you're being too simple? I need some exposition, here. |
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Talk is cheap N4ST has given a decent summation, with the primetime slowdown caveat, which applies to many ground-based ISPs (WISP, DSL, Cable) also. During off-peak hours, Exede-12 (and Exede-5) will exceed speeds experienced on many smaller-city ground-based ISPs. FIOS speeds are not the norm across US, but tends to be mostly in larger cities, where available. Even a rural WISP, with state of the art equipment, still has primetime slowdowns, and limited speeds during off-peak hours, depending upon your distance from WISP's tower. Watching full HD movies on most all WISPs, forget it, even in off-peak hours. ViaSat anticipates launching ViaSat-2 towards end of this year, and when up/running, I rather suspect the primetime slowdown caveat for many beams will be reduced, so better speeds will exist during primetime. ViaSat-2 will also be available to Western US users, like myself, who are using Exede-5. Satellite performance overall has gotten much better with ViaSat being involved. Hughes got "motivated" for better performance after Wildblue was sold to ViaSat. |
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said by DrStrangLov:Even a rural WISP, with state of the art equipment, still has primetime slowdowns, and limited speeds during off-peak hours, depending upon your distance from WISP's tower. Distance, and topography, and which AP you are connected to, etc. Lots of variables there, but a few years ago I still preferred WISP to satellite almost every time. Now I'm not so sure. said by DrStrangLov:Watching full HD movies on most all WISPs, forget it, even in off-peak hours. I think we mostly try to forget about HD movies in the sticks. The impression I get is that Exede is generally better than Gen4. Is that correct? |
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Rural WISPs generally pay much more for their Internet Pipe connection per Mbps, than bigger city WISPs. I'm not current on pricing, but getting a T3 (44.736 Mbit/s) in earlier days, was extremely expensive in my rural area, per month. That's why many rural WISPs are limited in bandwidth. quote: Exede is generally better than Gen4
According to Testmy.net stats, this is the case, especially on upload speeds. » testmy.net/hoststats/hug ··· rk_syste» testmy.net/hoststats/via ··· nicationPerformance must be based upon an user's beam, and generally, where higher density rural areas exist, the more users on-board. And, based upon an user's time of usage. "Exede is better," imho, that would depend upon an user's wants. I suspect both can deliver web pages OK, and both would have primetime slowdowns. But, during off-peak hours, I would suspect Exede delivers higher Mbps to end users. I'm not current on Gen4's users-experiences; it may have improved in last year. |
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1 recommendation |
c0rr0sive88
Anon
2016-Jan-19 10:10 am
said by DrStrangLov:"Exede is better," imho, that would depend upon an user's wants. I suspect both can deliver web pages OK, and both would have primetime slowdowns. But, during off-peak hours, I would suspect Exede delivers higher Mbps to end users. I'm not current on Gen4's users-experiences; it may have improved in last year. Depends... Hughes will overload a beam if needed to get customers, where as Viasat usually wont. At the low hours, I see the maximum Hughes will push to any one customer, which is approximately 20Mbps. » testmy.net/lRmsv0feI.pngAlso, I am on one of the more congested beams as they never offered the Ultra package for my beam, and it hits some nasty speeds at primetime on weekends on occasion. As for overall latency, not sure what it's like on Viasats bird, but this is what I have seen on Jupiter. » i.gyazo.com/677825c1fab6 ··· 106b.pngIMO, they both have the exact same issues, and both Hughes and Viasat have the same benefits in most categories. |
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said by c0rr0sive88 :IMO, they both have the exact same issues Yes, the same issues, but I suspect Hughes through-put issues are more intense, as in more "pain per user" in congested beams. As Mark Dankberg, ViaSat Chairman and CEO, noted recently, "2016 will see a continuation-if not an acceleration-of the macro trend of increasing bandwidth demand at lower unit prices. The flip side of that is falling demand for high priced bandwidth. By the end of 2016..." In other words, with ViaSat-2 up/running, there will be a quantum leap in bandwidth available, and those with primetime slowdowns most likely will experience better days this December, or so. Latency - Increases with primetime, but normally Tracing route to gmail.com [216.58.217.5] over a maximum of 30 hops: 6 655 ms 655 ms 639 ms 63-148-172-73.lakemac.net [63.148.172.73]
7 * * * Request timed out.
8 643 ms 629 ms 662 ms 67.134.166.226
9 631 ms 636 ms 648 ms 72.14.234.59
10 642 ms 629 ms 639 ms 209.85.250.237
11 630 ms 640 ms 639 ms den03s09-in-f5.1e100.net [216.58.217.5]
Trace complete.
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to c0rr0sive88
said by c0rr0sive88 :Depends... Hughes will overload a beam if needed to get customers, where as Viasat usually wont. But then you said that they both have the exact same issues, and mostly the same benefits. I guess I need exposition yet again. Are you saying that an overloaded beam is not much different versus one that is not overloaded, even during primetime? said by c0rr0sive88 :As for overall latency, not sure what it's like on Viasats bird, but this is what I have seen on Jupiter. »i.gyazo.com/677825c1fab6 ··· 106b.png Has the packet loss been mostly acceptable? Do you have to refresh pages to get them to load properly very often, or anything like that? |
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to NissiAdonai4
Your performance on either exede and gen 4 will be largely dependent on the beam you are assigned to. Something you won't know until you try it out
Latency will always be an issue, so if you use latency sensitive applications, satellite will be a non starter. If you are a heavy data user and don't want to change your internet habits, the data caps will also make satellite a non starter
When I had satellite back in 2009 to 2010 on hughes gen 3, I researched a ton so I knew what I was getting into with the latency and data caps. Honestly the most annoying thing I found was how slow https sites worked. Pages would load at dial up speeds, which made paying bills online a chore. I'm not on any of the current satellite offerings so I don't know if that has been improved or not.
Bottom line to me, Satellite has closed the gap every so slightly on WISP due to the potential speeds you can now get, but I would still consider satellite a last resort option due to the data caps and latency |
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said by chances14:Bottom line to me, Satellite has closed the gap every so slightly on WISP.. A Provo, UT WISP offers 100 Mbps, but sorry, like FIOS service in select areas, rural outsiders can use Mom/Pop WISPs, if available, who pay highly for bandwidth, and deliver maybe 3 Mbps down, when not in primetime. And yes, datacaps exist in WISP world: » Data caps with a Wisp? ... say it is not so» www.vivint.com/internet? ··· d=20220& |
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elctrczipperDefund Terrorism, BAN O.P.E.C. Oil Premium Member join:2002-10-03 united state
2 recommendations |
to NissiAdonai4
Correct! But both are comparable to one another. I'm using Gen4 now due to the 50G anytime allowance and 50G from 2AM-8AM for the same price. Left exede for the 20 extra gigs anytime allowance. But when/if exede has the freedom plan?(150Gs) available in my area, I'll probably go back to them for that high bandwidth along with the slight edge in performance. Started with hughes years ago and due to trees(15yrs) finally necessitating dish relocation, I had to compare both hughes and exede, at the time it was a coin toss as I had no experience with either gen4 or exede, so I gave exede a try, and I like them. But increase in bandwidth offered by gen4 brought me back for now, unless or until hughes tops exedes bandwidth and performance. |
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elctrczipper
1 recommendation |
to chances14
[Bottom line to me, Satellite has closed the gap every so slightly on WISP due to the potential speeds you can now get, but I would still consider satellite a last resort option due to the data caps and latency]
I agree 100%, at least until/if spaceX or others trying to create a low orbit sat system are successful. |
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to NissiAdonai4
said by NissiAdonai4:said by c0rr0sive88 :Depends... Hughes will overload a beam if needed to get customers, where as Viasat usually wont. But then you said that they both have the exact same issues, and mostly the same benefits. I guess I need exposition yet again. Are you saying that an overloaded beam is not much different versus one that is not overloaded, even during primetime? said by c0rr0sive88 :As for overall latency, not sure what it's like on Viasats bird, but this is what I have seen on Jupiter. »i.gyazo.com/677825c1fab6 ··· 106b.png Has the packet loss been mostly acceptable? Do you have to refresh pages to get them to load properly very often, or anything like that? The loss is almost minimal, and rather acceptable for satellite IMO. I see cable and DSL connections with a higher average loss a lot of times. Some of my losses can easily be caused by a sudden burst of rain, or snow, or the random bird that decides to hang out in front of a radio for no reason. But clear skies at home, and at my gateway, usually never have to refresh a page or anything. Really haven't seen a page not connect the first time around on Jupiter. If you compare two beams from Hughes and Viasat that had similar user levels, I would say the two beams would show the same characturistics. As in, any potentially overloaded beam on Viasat would show the same problems an overloaded beam from Hughes would. It really only takes a few minutes of browsing both the companies communities to see that they all have a rash of supposedly vanishing data, slow speeds, and generally... The same everything. |
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said by c0rr0sive88 :...both the companies...The same everything I recall Hughes having throughput issues in previous years with their new equipment, but as I noted, "during off-peak hours, I would suspect Exede delivers higher Mbps to end users." Testmy results, as cited above, shows this to be the case. Exede has closed beams off to new customers, but I suspect Hughes has packed more users on per beam than Exede. Again, when ViaSat-2 is up/running, I think Exede users will experience higher speeds during primetime. |
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2 recommendations |
to DrStrangLov
said by DrStrangLov:said by chances14:Bottom line to me, Satellite has closed the gap every so slightly on WISP.. A Provo, UT WISP offers 100 Mbps, but sorry, like FIOS service in select areas, rural outsiders can use Mom/Pop WISPs, if available, who pay highly for bandwidth, and deliver maybe 3 Mbps down, when not in primetime. And yes, datacaps exist in WISP world: » Data caps with a Wisp? ... say it is not so» www.vivint.com/internet? ··· d=20220& yes some WISP have data caps, just like some cable and dsl companies do. But generally caps on satellite are the most restrictive |
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BasilAR WildBlue join:2006-07-20 Parks, AR
1 recommendation |
to DrStrangLov
Another thing to consider is quality of installers. ViaSat has really tighten their act. Hughes primarily depends on Dish installers. |
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N4STJim Premium Member join:2005-11-25 Jersey, VA
1 recommendation |
to DrStrangLov
said by DrStrangLov:...Exede has closed beams off to new customers, but I suspect Hughes has packed more users on per beam than Exede Beam 329 in Exede was closed to new customers and then reopened to new customers under the Liberty Plan. Speeds vary from 20Mbps on weekday mornings to 1-3Mbps during primetime. It's too hard for them to halt installs. Got to keep their local dealers fed. |
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said by N4ST:It's too hard for them to halt installs. Got to keep their local dealers fed. Anik F2 was launched in July 2004, and has a 15 year lifespan, with an end-of-life power of 16 kW. Besides having broadband Ka beams, it has 40 transponders in Ku-band and 24 in C-band. I have no idea if 16 kW is enough for full usage, but at some point in time, those still on Anik F2 will have to be moved over to ViaSat-2. I would suspect local dealers are allocated a certain number each month. Needless to say, there is always "churn," so we don't really know actual user counts on a beam in terms of increase/decrease in total numbers. » space.skyrocket.de/doc_s ··· k-f2.htm» www.boeingimages.com/arc ··· X_H.html |
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james1979 Premium Member join:2012-10-09 Quinault, WA
1 recommendation |
to NissiAdonai4
said by NissiAdonai4:After visiting some recent personal customers, I was blown away with the performance I was seeing from Exede and Dish. One of the customers said that her Dish connection would experience connectivity issues during rain, but the Exede customer said that her connection didn't go down even during bad weather. First keep in mind that DishNet can be "whatever". DishNet can be rebranded Exede-12, rebranded HughesNet Gen4, or it can be rebranded HughesNet HN9000. So without knowledge of what system is being used, "DishNet" is not useful for comparisons to Gen4 or Exede-12. I have used both Exede-12 and HughesNet Gen4 simultaneously. As I have posted about often, Gen4 never worked right for me (more on that later), and Hughes lost a long time customer. Exede-12 was both equally flaky and fast at first, but the flakiness has mitigated and my speeds have slowed over time as would be expected. In the past, I could routinely get 16-20 Mbps at anytime with Exede-12, but prime time speeds have slowed down almost certainly due to ViaSat's desire to unclog the Late Night Free Zone (an unmetered period from midnight to 5 A.M.) with their Liberty plans. My speeds with Exede-12 are still acceptable and within their "up to" disclaimer. Due to Exede's understandable desire to uncongest traffic during certain periods of time, I can't often stream HD video during prime time. But with a 10 GB data cap, it wasn't feasible to watch HD video during prime time anyway. (That has changed due to NightShift: » www.wildblueworld.com/fo ··· ree-Zone) Now back to HughesNet Gen4, I was getting sub 1 Mbps speeds during prime time. I thought that I had figured out the problem as explained here: » A Tale of Haunted HT1000s . Now if you read through my writings, I thought that HughesNet's speed problem on beam 51 were solved with a HT1100 upgrade. But no, after convincing those neighbors to upgrade to a Gen4 Ultra plan, their speeds have once again dropped to under 1 Mbps. Here is a speed test from my Macbook Pro plugged into an HT1100 bypassing the Apple router that I gave to them: » [Satellite Speed test: 0.53/0.28 1097 ms] Either the "radio" (aka transmitter) is faulty or else HghesNet has a problem on that beam. (HughesNet's speed test was showing similar, but slightly higher speeds, but only reaching 1 Mbps.) Regarding rain, I chose to live in the wettest place possible in North America. The average rainfall is 168 inches per year on my dish. It is mostly orographic rain and both Hughes and Exede systems will sometimes lose connection briefly, but it's not a big problem or really a problem at all. As for WISPs, here is a very recent speed test from relative "M"'s WISP: » [WISP Speed test: 5.58/1.17 33 ms] That's not a poor speed for a WISP, but I was not able to get Netflix to stream in HD. (Of course you would know that the Arbuckle Mountains are not located in Washington.) Personally, I'm fine with the LNFZ and my $50 / month Classic 10 plan. |
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james1979 |
to BasilAR
said by BasilAR:Another thing to consider is quality of installers. ViaSat has really tighten their act. When my Exede-12 system went out due to what was eventually diagnosed as being faulty bolts on the dish mount, absolutely no "certified technician" would come out to fix it as Exede would not pay them enough to drive oh so far away. I had to live in a motel an hour's drive away for two weeks just to get Internet service. Via "magic", I obtained the software key to my modem and had to realign the dish myself in the dark and rain (using a 13mm socket IIRC). That would not had been necessary with HughesNet. |
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Liberty Premium Member join:2005-06-12 Arizona |
Liberty
Premium Member
2016-Jan-22 9:54 am
said by james1979:That would not had been necessary with HughesNet. Curious why you say this... |
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N4STJim Premium Member join:2005-11-25 Jersey, VA 2 edits |
to james1979
said by james1979:Via "magic", I obtained the software key to my modem The Internet is pretty magical. |
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james1979 Premium Member join:2012-10-09 Quinault, WA 1 edit
1 recommendation |
to Liberty
said by Liberty:said by james1979:That would not had been necessary with HughesNet. Curious why you say this... Because I was a HughesNet customer for over 10 years, and Hughes promptly and professionally serviced my system twice. They didn't have marked vehicles, but they were wearing HughesNet apparel. My Exede installers were goofballs and did an unnecessary extended cable run because they wanted an extra $50-100 (?) in cash. The dish is aimed near a tree and will eventually need to be moved. I'll give Exede a chance to send someone out to move the dish, but if they won't, then I'm going to move my dish back across my driveway and next to my house where it belongs. I posted this photo a year or two ago, but here it is again.
And the cable that they used has a steel ground wire which has rusted to uselessness.
Edit: I have posted about my installation before. The installers left the cable across my gravel driveway. I then had to trench across my driveway and properly protected the cable in a conduit.
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james1979
1 recommendation |
Other neighbors (not the Gen4 ones) have Exede-12 via DishNet. Those installers had to come out three times to get their system working with a phone call to someone higher up in Exede being necessary. The installers still couldn't get the dish from loosely rotating. That neighbor being mechanically inclined, suggested drilling a hole and using a set screw to keep the dish stabilized. That worked. Their early dish with a "Wildblue" logo also went out of alignment and needed servicing. They said that someone came out from Forks, WA (80+ mile drive) rather promptly to point the dish. But remember, that was DishNet which has a different service system. (I've got a doctor's appointment in two hours. It's going to be hard to explain that my blood pressure is so high due to "Exede installers".) |
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james1979
1 recommendation |
to N4ST
said by N4ST:said by james1979:Via "magic", I obtained the software key to my modem The Internet is pretty magical. It was absurd that a subscriber had to learn how to install an Exede-12 system just to get the service that he was paying for (along with bills for the inn). But on the bright side, now I know how to service my system. I am restraining myself from posting about a certain experience with Exede's customer service. Wait, I've broken my restraints. I was told to "stop complaining" and to "stop emailing" that exedelistens email address. I work on the Internet and have no options but satellite! NissiAdonai4: I will post again about WISPs vs. satellite, but it will probably be a day or two later. Now I am going to Google search for "happy happy photos" and inevitably find cat photos. |
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