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Datalink
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join:2014-08-11
Ottawa ON

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Datalink to robert_s2

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Re: SB6190 Puma6 TCP/UDP Network Latency Issue Discussion

said by robert_s2:

So it seems their internal evaluation came up with the Puma7 device being the better solution.

I'd say that at the end of the day, the bottom line rules the day instead of the technical discussions. Modem recycling costs and tech service call costs don't seem to enter into the calculation as they should. The Puma 6 service costs for all affected ISPs must have been huge, so, why would any ISP go back to Intel for yet another Puma modem? There's got to be some deal of the century that we're not privy to. Maybe someday it will make the news.

xymox1
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xymox1

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I do want to point out tho, I feel Intel could well produce a chip better then Broadcom at some point in the future. I don't dislike Intel. I am unhappy with how this was all handled by them tho. I will be the first to praise them if they fix the issues and when they produce a awesome chip. I am VERY serious that there MUST be 2 competitors in this market to be healthy. So I want Intel to get things fixed and move on from this oopsie. Everybody makes mistakes, so, its all good in my mind.
xymox1

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xymox1 to Datalink

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to Datalink
said by Datalink:

said by robert_s2:

So it seems their internal evaluation came up with the Puma7 device being the better solution.

I'd say that at the end of the day, the bottom line rules the day instead of the technical discussions. Modem recycling costs and tech service call costs don't seem to enter into the calculation as they should. The Puma 6 service costs for all affected ISPs must have been huge, so, why would any ISP go back to Intel for yet another Puma modem? There's got to be some deal of the century that we're not privy to. Maybe someday it will make the news.

Maybe like Intel is giving them away free to get a foot hold in the connected home and work toward a monopoly and total control of the residential home.
robert_s2
join:2004-04-16
GERMANY

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robert_s2 to xymox1

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to xymox1
said by xymox1:

So... AGAIN... Why would you choose a Intel over a Broadcom based solution ?

For me in Germany, it's a question of availability: German cable operators still lend out a (Puma 6 or 7) cable router with each contract, and in fact about 95% of their customers are happy using that.

For the remaining 5%, only one small German cable modem maker serves the German retail channel, also only with Puma 6 or 7 devices.

The only way to get a Broadcom-based solution here is to "grey import", and some people got together to order TC4400-EUs from abroad, but that's rather painful, since firmware updates can only be done via an CMTS, so one of them ordered a cheap CMTS and offers to update TC4400s sent to him...
said by xymox1:

I can plot and prove the Broadcom is better in performance. I can point to maybe the worst face plant in cable modem history for security. They do not have the experience Broadcom does. The way Itel processes packets seems inherently lower performance then Broadcoms solution.

These may all seem like big issues to you, but at least here in Germany, hardly anyone notices even the worst old Puma6 modem firmware having the bad latency issue. And those who do go and buy a retail Puma6 device to get fixed firmware.

As for me, I do take a closer look, but using a Puma7 device with up-to-date firmware, I feel close enough to anything the Broadcom could be better at. In fact, it only seems the jitter may be slightly better. That is certainly not enough of a reason to put up with the poorly supported TC4400.

xymox1
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xymox1

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said by robert_s2:

These may all seem like big issues to you, but at least here in Germany, hardly anyone notices even the worst old Puma6 modem firmware having the bad latency issue. And those who do go and buy a retail Puma6 device to get fixed firmware.

As for me, I do take a closer look, but using a Puma7 device with up-to-date firmware, I feel close enough to anything the Broadcom could be better at. In fact, it only seems the jitter may be slightly better. That is certainly not enough of a reason to put up with the poorly supported TC4400.

How do you know you have up to date firmware ? How are you testing ?

I consider a 100% DoS a big issue. While Intel appears to have applied a bandaid solution, I can still produce a 100% DoS for a second because the underlying issue still exists. This begs the question as Datalink alluded to, are there other ways to produce the DoS. There is also a packet-of-death issue that Mackey found that seemed to indicate there were possibly other underlying issues. Keep in mind we are just end users and found these issues. I don't know of anyone who has done a professional security examination of the Puma, so, it might be that other issues exist..

I do feel bad for your situation. Its the same in a number of other countries. Intel in just a few years took complete control of a market. So sadly you have no choices and intel can push bad performance devices without any competitor. Its hard to imagine a better way to sell chips then to take complete control of a entire worldwide market. You can see why they would give away chips in order to own a worldwide market that gives them complete control of a home network.

Intel has a long history of anti-trust behavior and anti-competitive practices according to court settlements.

Broadcom's behavior and apparent morals and ethics in this market seem more appealing to me.

I'm in this now to make sure modem makers can't just shove bad performance devices on us in a monopoly manner.

The Puma 7 is not a bad device. I have one and a Broadcom 3390. So I can flip between them live. I prefer the Broadcom. But for most people a Puma 7 with current updated firmware is pretty darn close. So. Its not BAD. Is it the best modem chip ? No. Is it the best choice for a ISP ? I can't see why they choose it with the history and lesser performance. It seems its either cost and/or some incentive.
robert_s2
join:2004-04-16
GERMANY

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robert_s2

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said by xymox1:

I consider a 100% DoS a big issue. While Intel appears to have applied a bandaid solution, I can still produce a 100% DoS for a second because the underlying issue still exists. This begs the question as Datalink alluded to, are there other ways to produce the DoS. There is also a packet-of-death issue that Mackey found that seemed to indicate there were possibly other underlying issues. Keep in mind we are just end users and found these issues.

It's been over 2 years since you started this thread. How many real DoS attacks have there been on Puma devices since? I am not away of any. So it seems to me that this is not at all the real-life threat it originally seemed.
said by xymox1:

I don't know of anyone who has done a professional security examination of the Puma, so, it might be that other issues exist..

Do you know of anyone who has done a professional security examination of the Broadcom BCM3390?
said by xymox1:

Intel has a long history of anti-trust behavior and anti-competitive practices according to court settlements.

Broadcom's behavior and apparent morals and ethics in this market seem more appealing to me.

I actually don't care either way, since I own stock of both
jnv11
join:2015-05-18
Morrisville, NC

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jnv11 to xymox1

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to xymox1
said by xymox1:

said by robert_s2:

So it seems their internal evaluation came up with the Puma7 device being the better solution.

Or way cheaper...
said by robert_s2:

And I see nothing yet proving them wrong.

I do.. But thats been so vastly covered in this thread im not gonna go over it again.

You know... After 3 years of having to correct people and battle noobs on this subject, im worn out ! hahaha...

So... AGAIN... Why would you choose a Intel over a Broadcom based solution ? I can plot and prove the Broadcom is better in performance. I can point to maybe the worst face plant in cable modem history for security. They do not have the experience Broadcom does. The way Itel processes packets seems inherently lower performance then Broadcoms solution.

As far as power consumption goes, its really nothing important in my mind.. The way BOTH these chips get hot tho I feel is a issue. I have run a fan on my modems for years.

So.. If you want to debate this further you would need to tell me why Intel has a advantage over Broadcom for end users and/or ISPs.

A German court has banned Broadcom's cable modem chipsets due to patent infringement according to »www.businesswire.com/new ··· Broadcom. Intel's the only choice in Germany as a result.
robert_s2
join:2004-04-16
GERMANY

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robert_s2

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said by jnv11:

A German court has banned Broadcom's cable modem chipsets due to patent infringement according to »www.businesswire.com/new ··· Broadcom. Intel's the only choice in Germany as a result.

This appears to be outdated. Broadcom then announced it would challenge the patent:

»investors.broadcom.com/p ··· =2305804

But it seems Broadcom then decided to enter a patent license agreement:

»electroiq.com/2017/12/te ··· roadcom/

So this should be settled now.

xymox1
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xymox1 to robert_s2

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to robert_s2
said by robert_s2:

said by xymox1:

I consider a 100% DoS a big issue. While Intel appears to have applied a bandaid solution, I can still produce a 100% DoS for a second because the underlying issue still exists. This begs the question as Datalink alluded to, are there other ways to produce the DoS. There is also a packet-of-death issue that Mackey found that seemed to indicate there were possibly other underlying issues. Keep in mind we are just end users and found these issues.

It's been over 2 years since you started this thread. How many real DoS attacks have there been on Puma devices since? I am not away of any. So it seems to me that this is not at all the real-life threat it originally seemed.
said by xymox1:

I don't know of anyone who has done a professional security examination of the Puma, so, it might be that other issues exist..

Do you know of anyone who has done a professional security examination of the Broadcom BCM3390?
said by xymox1:

Intel has a long history of anti-trust behavior and anti-competitive practices according to court settlements.

Broadcom's behavior and apparent morals and ethics in this market seem more appealing to me.

I actually don't care either way, since I own stock of both

As I said.. To continue this line of debate, provide reasons a ISP or end user would want a Intel based device over a Broadcom ? Intel devices perform slightly worse and have a checkered history with little real world experience in this market. What is the reason I or a ISP would want one ? There is one good answer to this besides price I can think of.

I can see plenty of reasons why Intel would do about anything to get into cable modem gateways tho. PCs are going away in homes. Intel has no chip footprint in mobile. Intel wants into "The Connected Home" really badly and wants to offer a huge range of "connected" products from IoT, Automation, security, etc etc.. If the network gateway has a Atom in it then x86 programs and development tools are already ready to go. Not to mention they can sell lots of chips to connect to the gateway Atom in the home. That foothold into the home with a gateway is the first step of a well thought out bigger plan. A plan to take over the connected world.

By getting a ISP to do a exclusive deal, they take over ALL those homes in one go. In many cases thats entire countries. Consumers don't have a choice. Its a incredible business opportunity.

So I think thats why they bought the Puma from TI. To take over the cable connected world. I think they might have succeeded by now had the Puma not face planted.

I feel strongly that there should be 2 players in the cable modem chip buis for end users. I respect how powerfully Intel has worked market penetration. But. I disagree that they should be the sole player like they were with x86 PCs. We need a AMD & Intel in the PC market and we need Broadcom and Intel in the Cable modem market.

I would bet that Intel is brewing up a mighty impressive Puma 8. I would wager Intel is very aware now of latency and jitter in cable modem chips. I would bet the next gen of Intel cable modem chip is very impressive indeed.

As far as security testing goes. I think Intel and Broadcom might have had time to take this very seriously and now have labs and proceedures that are far more intense then they did 2 years ago. I know at least one major ISP now does full performance testing rather then relying on a modem maker to do it.

So the modem world changed in the last 2 years. It takes time to make new chips and new modems and for all these tests and procedures to work out. I am confident tho that the next gen of chips will be far more tested and more performance tuned. This was really my goal going back to my first post on my original thread. I wanted to make sure everyone's internet experience was not chocked down to one supplier that had jittery bad products. Thats still my focus and im not done yet.

So, again, why would I choose a Puma 7 over a BCM3390 ?

In Germany you need to work on getting the right to purchase your own device and make sure Broadcom and Intel have equal access to the market. Monopolies are always bad.
xymox1

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xymox1 to NetDog

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»www.youtube.com/watch?v= ··· AYwpUDv8
xymox1

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xymox1 to NetDog

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I should point out that everything ive said in the recent posts ive said before in this thread. In fact ive said every word of all this like 5 times. Sorry, I sound like a broken record

I think the only new things that have happened over the last 6 months is that various modem makers and ISPs have been rolling out new firmware that addresses to some degree the DoS and performance issues across the globe. Im very happy to see that occur.

Its possible to follow the public records of the class action lawsuit. To check on the case it does cost a bit of money as you have to pay to get court records. You will need a PACER account - free - »www.pacer.gov/ You will need to associate a credit card so they can bill you for pages and can verify your identity. Then go here and login with your pacer acct info leaving the bottom field blank. »ecf.cand.uscourts.gov/cg ··· login.pl Then search for Arris. You will find everything. It does require some back and forth and poking about. There are a lot of documents and lots of redaction.

So I believe that brings things up to date as far as i know. I cannot discuss anything about the court case and I have not said anything here that i have not said many times before the case began. Datalink and others might have more recent info then i do.
robert_s2
join:2004-04-16
GERMANY

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robert_s2 to xymox1

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said by xymox1:

Intel has a long history of anti-trust behavior and anti-competitive practices according to court settlements.

And was fined billions for this, especially in the EU. So I don't think Intel would be so foolish to pull another stunt like this with cable modem chipsets, because the EU would happily fine them again. Intel wouldn't want to fill the gap in the EU's finances that the UK will leave behind, would they?

strykerzr350
join:2018-09-04
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strykerzr350 to xymox1

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I agree, after I swapped out my old and dated SB6121 my streaming experience got better. I thought Comcast was throttling me but it was not them it was my modem. I am on the CM700 and have been lucky with my logs and streaming. I did a video chat with a family member and it never dropped the connection.

Getting you ISP to push current firmware is another story, expect to get tier 2 customer service so you can get it, if you have Comcast.

I hope Intel learns from this mistake.

xymox1
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xymox1 to robert_s2

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said by robert_s2:

said by xymox1:

Intel has a long history of anti-trust behavior and anti-competitive practices according to court settlements.

And was fined billions for this, especially in the EU. So I don't think Intel would be so foolish to pull another stunt like this with cable modem chipsets, because the EU would happily fine them again. Intel wouldn't want to fill the gap in the EU's finances that the UK will leave behind, would they?

There is a very long pattern of bad behavior. To me this Puma takeover of the world seems like a similar pattern. Really none of these have hurt Intel, so, its just a cost of doing buis. Even if the fine is billions. »www.networkworld.com/art ··· ory.html

attempts to exclude competitors through market domination

xymox1

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xymox1 to NetDog

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" U.S. Federal Trade Commission filed antitrust lawsuit against Intel, alleging that Intel has waged a "systematic campaign" to cut off rivals' access to the marketplace and prevent adoption of superior products produced by competitors."

This sounds like EXACTLY what is going on with the cable modem market and Broadcom.
xymox1

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xymox1 to NetDog

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So.. I think its very reasonable to consider that something untoward and maybe even illegal might be going on when a company who has never made cable modem chips before suddenly takes over the complete world market somehow getting device makers to use its chips and somehow getting ISPs to buy the boxes giving consumers little if any choice especially when this company has a long history of unethical/immoral and illegal acts.

Yea,, im suspicious.

Ive said all this many times in this thread. My primary fear in all this is that Intel will crush out Broadcom leaving me, and the world, with crappy quality connections. Its why I have taken on this battle.

All that said.. I think Intel can make a killer chip. I want Intel in the market. We need at least 2 players in the cable modem chip buis in order to have a healthy, innovative and competitive market. So im 100% behind Intel as long as they play fair. Putting a Atom chip inside a gateway could produce a whole new kind of device for home use and could offer consumers a cool set of things and bring in more money for ISPs. So that kind of innovation is a great thing. BUT. There must be 2 players, not a monopoly fueled by unethical/immoral/illegal acts.

KoRnGtL15
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KoRnGtL15 to NetDog

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So I seen Intel is still winning. Wow!

xymox1
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xymox1

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Intel is still winning. The Puma 6 is still shipping. The SB6190 is still selling. Entire ISPs are still doing exclusive Intel deals to take over the homes in a entire country. Several press stories and this epic thread with nearly 400,000 IPs viewing it, CVEs, paid bug bounties, class action law suits and more and still Intel wins. To Intel's credit, they are a fierce competitor. I do give them points for being very focused and aggressive. They do push the envelope of the legal boundaries of capitalism. I respect that they are a fierce opponent. I must say, I have completely enjoyed the battle. Its been a very interesting and fun fight.

But... Being a bully tho can sometimes have a downside, hahahaha..

»www.youtube.com/watch?v= ··· 1JO0izdE

BimmerE38FN
join:2002-09-15
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BimmerE38FN

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Not sure if this makes sense for Intel or if Intel maybe following this kind of logic. History showed one truck Mfr that had a flaw in the gas tank design. The problem was brought up to the mfr. The mfr figured that lawsuits were more or less affordable should they come to court, rather then paying to resigned the gas tank problem in there truck. Not sure if Intel could be thinking along these lines or not. Just something a friend of mine brought up. Made me think about Intel and this issue.
said by xymox1:

Intel is still winning. The Puma 6 is still shipping. The SB6190 is still selling. Entire ISPs are still doing exclusive Intel deals to take over the homes in a entire country. Several press stories and this epic thread with nearly 400,000 IPs viewing it, CVEs, paid bug bounties, class action law suits and more and still Intel wins. To Intel's credit, they are a fierce competitor. I do give them points for being very focused and aggressive. They do push the envelope of the legal boundaries of capitalism. I respect that they are a fierce opponent. I must say, I have completely enjoyed the battle. Its been a very interesting and fun fight.

But... Being a bully tho can sometimes have a downside, hahahaha..

sd70mac
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Extrapolating from ISP pricing in markets with three or more players versus markets with one or two players, it really takes at least three players to have a truly competetive market.

xymox1
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Phoenix, AZ

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xymox1 to NetDog

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From CES today. Skip to 24:50 No doubt Intel is after world domination in the home.

»player.vimeo.com/video/3 ··· d=122963
xymox1

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xymox1 to NetDog

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So Intel is saying they will be first to offer silicon for 10G... Is this maybe a Puma 8 ? We need someone to go over to the CES booth and check what they are showing doing 10G with Comcast.

train_wreck
slow this bird down
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train_wreck

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said by xymox1:

So Intel is saying they will be first to offer silicon for 10G... Is this maybe a Puma 8 ? We need someone to go over to the CES booth and check what they are showing doing 10G with Comcast.

Or maybe 10G ethernet chipsets? That seems to be one of their stronger areas.

Devious
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Devious to NetDog

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Time to shut this thread down?



jtl999
join:2012-11-24
canada

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jtl999

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What's your implication? I'm wondering. Is he okay, or did he leave DSLReports because he got bored or was told to stop posting here?

xymox1
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xymox1

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Im sad to see that... On the other hand, we dont know what happened, maybe he moved to a better spot...

Also... This just in...

»techcrunch.com/2019/01/0 ··· n-homes/

train_wreck
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said by the techcrunch article :

The tech will come by way of Intel’s Puma system on a chip — yes, the same one that saw a lot of controversy because of a bug that let malicious hackers massively slow down the performance of a modem running 5th, 6th and 7th generations of the chip (a firmware update ultimately fixed the flaw).


xymox1
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said by train_wreck:

said by the techcrunch article :

The tech will come by way of Intel’s Puma system on a chip — yes, the same one that saw a lot of controversy because of a bug that let malicious hackers massively slow down the performance of a modem running 5th, 6th and 7th generations of the chip (a firmware update ultimately fixed the flaw).

Well, "fixed" is in the eye of the beholder. Depends on how you define it. I suppose it also depends on what device your discussing. Im not aware of any 5th gen Puma that got a firmware update for this ?

I betcha there is a Puma 7 in the booth at CES running this demo with Comcast. I wonder if they allow people to browse using a computer hooked to all that ? If so,,, I have a test to run. hehehehe.. That would be so awesome. Run the DoS test right in the booth at CES. OH, I wish I was at CES. Wear my shirt with my clown avatar on it. My Calvin pissing on a Intel puma on the back. Wander up and run that test then ask a handy Intel person about it. Watch them turn white once they realize who I am and what im doing... Oh man.. That would be priceless. "im sorry, your going to need to leave the booth sir"....
xymox1

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xymox1 to train_wreck

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to train_wreck
I need to know Broadcom has silicon also in this. »www.theregister.co.uk/20 ··· ication/
xymox1

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xymox1 to train_wreck

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I really need to find out if this Intel/MaxLinear box is Puma 7 based. Its a tad terrifying Intel is about to try and monopolize the entire industry yet again with 10G & WiFi6. There might be more unresolved issues in the Puma yet to be found and addressed. Spraying the world population again with Puma 7's might not be the best idea. If there was a Puma 8, OK maybe. But if this is a Puma 7, I have my doubts about performance at 5Gbps, full duplex, speeds with small packets. Its all about PPS, not Gbps. IMHO.

I pray Broadcom has a 10G full duplex box with wifi6.