 halfband
Premium Member
join:2002-06-01
Huntsville, AL |
to germ65
Re: [CustSvc] Lousy Comcast customer service exampleAs stated by gar187er the plate with the connectors is known as the tap. All good.
rendrenner has a point, a user can often easily fix noise ingress issues within their own home. It can be as simple as; making sure all the connectors are tight, replacing any patch cables with molded or push on connectors with the "long shiny metal connector" style you see on the compression fittings used by Comcast, getting rid of old low quality splitters, and terminating any unused connection jacks.
What you probably can not do is easily fix in wall wiring that uses old style connectors without purchasing the tooling to install compression fittings. However often the techs will replace these (or you can be requested them to be replaced ) when techs are troubleshooting noise or other problems.
The big issue is, you can not see the noise, so you have no way of knowing when you have corrected the issue. A tech with the right kind of meter is required to see if your drop and wiring is now clean. While phone support can use some tools to see line noise, they are limited and to truly be sure a direct connection with the right tooling is required.
From the description you are able to provide about the work performed we have no way of knowing if the first tech made an error and the issue was outside your home. We also do not know for sure if the second tech corrected and verified that the ingress issue had been completely resolved. Noise, especially intermittent noise can be a nightmare scenario to resolve in the system like a cable plant. There is simply insufficient information to determine if the specific noise issue that initiated the filter install has been resolved. The information about how the filter was installed, how tight it was etc has no bearing on the noise issue itself. |
· actions · 2017-May-29 11:59 am · (locked) |
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germ65
Member
2017-May-29 3:57 pm
This thread has now morphed into a discussion of noise issues.
My problem is not with Comcast trying to clean up their lines. My problem is with them screwing up my service and killing my connection while doing so. |
· actions · 2017-May-29 3:57 pm · (locked) |
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said by germ65:This thread has now morphed into a discussion of noise issues.
My problem is not with Comcast trying to clean up their lines. My problem is with them screwing up my service and killing my connection while doing so. The noise is why your services were killed. Something had to be there when the tech discovered it. There is no way the tech confused your house accidently with one 10 houses down. As far as the not working without access to the home, I think there is some confusion with what the CSR said. It is quite common to set up a job for outside work. With your job specifically, the notes added to the account when the tech logged the fault at your house it indicates that it is an inside the home issue. The tech cannot enter if no one is home. Some people are way too trusting and have no issue with someone entering if they are not home. Its unfortunate that it wasn't explained to you better, and typical that you did not get a call. Call center can drop the ball on entering secondary contact numbers and some techs dont call ahead for whatever reason.. |
· actions · 2017-May-29 4:49 pm · (locked) |
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germ65
Member
2017-May-29 11:50 pm
said by rendrenner:The noise is why your services were killed.
Something had to be there when the tech discovered it. There is no way the tech confused your house accidently with one 10 houses down. So I have had this Xfinity service since last Novemeber and now, all of a sudden, there is a noise issue. Therefore Comcast feels they can just send somebody out AND KILL MY INTERNET SERVICE (INCL. MY PHONE) without any notice whatsoever??? On your planet that may be OK, not here. According to the second tech, the first tech screwed up. I would love to have both techs come over at the same time and watch them argue... said by rendrenner:As far as the not working without access to the home, I think there is some confusion with what the CSR said. It is quite common to set up a job for outside work. With your job specifically, the notes added to the account when the tech logged the fault at your house it indicates that it is an inside the home issue. The tech cannot enter if no one is home. Some people are way too trusting and have no issue with someone entering if they are not home. I am OK with the tech entering my back yard when I am not at home, NOT my house. said by rendrenner:Its unfortunate that it wasn't explained to you better, and typical that you did not get a call. Call center can drop the ball on entering secondary contact numbers and some techs dont call ahead for whatever reason.. I find this grossly unprofessional. If I was in charge, this would be ground for a reprimand and, if repeated, for dismissal. |
· actions · 2017-May-29 11:50 pm · (locked) |
rody_44
Premium Member
join:2004-02-20
Quakertown, PA |
rody_44
Premium Member
2017-May-30 8:26 am
You are missnig the fact that noise doesnt just kill your connection. It can kill a whole node. The lesser of 2 evils is to knock your service off to get a couple of hundred other customers back on. Whats lousy customer service to you is good customer service for a feww hundred people. You might not find it acceptable but its the way it is. The other people on the node would tend not to agree with you. Sucks when the noise is coming from your house. About the only way they can handle it tho if no one is home. FWIW, comcast is paperless in almost all areas. Techs often cant even see the notes. CSRs should know this but they tend to go by what they see. |
· actions · 2017-May-30 8:26 am · (locked) |
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Anone3a74 to germ65
Anon
2017-May-30 10:38 am
to germ65
"all of a sudden, there is a noise issue. "
Yes, exactly. You only know a pipe has a leak in it when there is water going through it, otherwise you would have no idea. If you have a place where RF signal can leak into your coaxial wiring inside your house, it will only cause "ingress" when the signal that is leaking in is broadcast. If you posted your signal levels, we could look for the frequency with the most uncorrectables and take a guess. It could someone's HAM radio or ground>Air radio for Airport. Or it could a cell tower near by changed frequency. The fact that the ingress may have been gone when the second tech came says the signal is intermittent. Nothing is broken until it is, and saying "it didn't happen before" gives no useful info. If you want to ignore the problem, then that is your prerogative, but it WILL effect your service and the service of people around you. |
· actions · 2017-May-30 10:38 am · (locked) |
halfband
Premium Member
join:2002-06-01
Huntsville, AL
2 edits |
to germ65
For what it is worth, I think it is obvious that Comcasts communication in this case has been dismal. Unfortunately when dealing with phone CSRs and local techs this seems to be a common problem across many telecom/cable providers. said by germ65:So I have had this Xfinity service since last Novemeber and now, all of a sudden, there is a noise issue. Therefore Comcast feels they can just send somebody out AND KILL MY INTERNET SERVICE (INCL. MY PHONE) without any notice whatsoever??? On your planet that may be OK, not here. And you are not going to be alone in this as the systems migrate to Docsis 3.1 which requires a general cleaning up of cable plant noise, a lot of which comes from customer homes. The cable companies (not just comcast) are sweeping the systems and using filters to block the noise until they can contact owners (or as likely the customer calls and endures the CSR script until they get a tech) to get it cleaned up. WOW has the same practice. It is going to piss customers off, but they don't seem to have a better solution. I do believe that they should standardize on leaving at least a door tag, but I am sure a number of those will disappear with wind and rain. said by germ65:According to the second tech, the first tech screwed up. I would love to have both techs come over at the same time and watch them argue... I am sure you would find it very entertaining (excepting your service issues.) One of them got it wrong, possibly very wrong, as in inducing a intermittent service issue back into the system. Odds on favorite would be the second, but there is no way to tell. You are right to judge that from what you heard, both techs can not be correct. |
· actions · 2017-May-30 12:51 pm · (locked) |
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Anone3a74
Anon
2017-May-30 1:04 pm
"Odds on favorite would be the second, but there is no way to tell. "
Occam's razor; what is more likely, that the first technician did something hard to do that they didn't need to do, or that the second technician didn't do something because it was complicated or beyond him? I think the later is MUCH more likely, to the point that the first is improbably IMO. Of course the most direct way to know who is right is for a technician to come into the house to scan for ingress. If he finds some, then the first technician was right 100%. Proof is in the pudding. Why not get the first technician back out and prove us all wrong? |
· actions · 2017-May-30 1:04 pm · (locked) |
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to rody_44
Wow, lots of Comcast apologists on this forum... said by rody_44:You are missnig the fact that noise doesnt just kill your connection. It can kill a whole node. [...] Again: 1. There is no noise coming from my home. This has been confirmed by the second tech. Also, yesterday my internet went down again at 6 am. I called and the CSR scheduled another appt. for today. Later, at around 6:35 AM, connection came back and it has worked ever since. Did not want to waste another 30 min. of my time to cancel. Another tech came today, checked everything and said all is well. 2. My issue is not with Comcast trying to fix a suspected noise issue. My issue is about how they did it and the snafus that followed. |
· actions · 2017-May-30 11:38 pm · (locked) |
| germ65 |
to Anone3a74
said by Anone3a74 :"all of a sudden, there is a noise issue. "
Yes, exactly. You only know a pipe has a leak in it when there is water going through it, otherwise you would have no idea. If you have a place where RF signal can leak into your coaxial wiring inside your house, it will only cause "ingress" when the signal that is leaking in is broadcast. But the coax from the entrance box goes to the cable modem via a wall socket and patch cable. No other connections. Nothing changed inside the home since last November. said by Anone3a74 :If you posted your signal levels, we could look for the frequency with the most uncorrectables and take a guess. You mean this (see above)? BTW, I notice that sometimes 1 or 2 of the 16 channels are not locked (SNR is 0). Is that a problem? |
· actions · 2017-May-30 11:49 pm · (locked) |
| germ65 |
to Anone3a74
said by Anone3a74 :"Odds on favorite would be the second, but there is no way to tell. "
Occam's razor; what is more likely, that the first technician did something hard to do that they didn't need to do, or that the second technician didn't do something because it was complicated or beyond him? I think the later is MUCH more likely, to the point that the first is improbably IMO. I haven't met the first tech, but the second one sure seemed to know what he was doing. I saw how the filter/RF connector broke while he was unscrewing them. He told me that he will report the first tech to his supervisor for his sloppy work. said by Anone3a74 :Of course the most direct way to know who is right is for a technician to come into the house to scan for ingress. Not sure what you mean by it, but the second tech claimed there was no noise coming from my home. The third tech today came into my home, looked at the cable modem connection, and declared it OK. said by Anone3a74 :Why not get the first technician back out and prove us all wrong? Wish I knew how to do that. |
· actions · 2017-May-30 11:55 pm · (locked) |
| germ65 |
to halfband
said by halfband: The cable companies (not just comcast) are sweeping the systems and using filters to block the noise until they can contact owners (or as likely the customer calls and endures the CSR script until they get a tech) to get it cleaned up. WOW has the same practice. It is going to piss customers off, but they don't seem to have a better solution. I do believe that they should standardize on leaving at least a door tag, but I am sure a number of those will disappear with wind and rain. Sorry, no rain in sunny CA. But seriously, "they don't seem to have a better solution"? Really? They can't think of a better solution??? Did Comcast put a former airline exec in charge of their customer service? You don't think that contacting the customer regarding a service appointment to fix a noise issue would work way better?!? |
· actions · 2017-May-31 12:01 am · (locked) |
 Bink63Namedrop THIS
Premium Member
join:2002-10-06
Everywhere |
Bink63
Premium Member
2017-May-31 12:09 am
said by germ65:Sorry, no rain in sunny CA. Come again? How's the "drought" going there? Rained out MLB Games, mudslides and massive floods ring a bell? |
· actions · 2017-May-31 12:09 am · (locked) |
 owlyn
MVM
join:2004-06-05
Newtown, PA
Netgear RBRE960
Netgear RBSE960
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to germ65
If channels are (even sometimes) not locking, there is a problem. Noise can be intermittent, so even if two techs didn't see any on their visit, it is still possible that the first tech did. The noise problem I was experiencing took about 3 months to find, as it only occurred on weekends, and mostly in the morning. They finally tracked it down to a neighbor's house, and fixed the problem. They also found that one TV in my house was a source of noise, but not at a frequency that would hurt anything. Still, the tech put a special filter on it anyway in case that frequency was used in the future. Didn't hurt anything. |
· actions · 2017-May-31 6:32 am · (locked) |
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Anone3a74 to germ65
Anon
2017-May-31 6:57 am
to germ65
"This has been confirmed by the second tech."
One technician saying the opposite of another technician is not a confirmation, it's a confliction. Conflictions need to be confirmed. Everyone on this forum is telling you the same thing, but you don't want to confirm.
"Also, yesterday my internet went down again at 6 am. "
Yes, because you have ingress.
" Later, at around 6:35 AM, connection came back and it has worked ever sin"
Yup, the ingress went away. But it will come back. Seeing the pattern now?
"But the coax from the entrance box goes to the cable modem via a wall socket and patch cable."
I don't know where the ingress is coming from, just that it's probably from inside your house, or maybe the line to the pole, or maybe out at the drop itself. If you went downstairs and saw water on the floor below a pipe..even if you couldn't see it dripping wouldn't you assume there is a leak? Your signal levels show noise, the first technician was sent out there for noise (to try to fix another customer's problem 10 houses down), tried to fix it, but the other technicians (probably sub-contractors) don't know how to do their jobs. They are the ones messing up, so you shouldn't take their word that there is no problem. You have already proven them wrong by having a problem. If you want your problem fixed, have them find the ingress, in your home or otherwise. |
· actions · 2017-May-31 6:57 am · (locked) |
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halfband
Premium Member
join:2002-06-01
Huntsville, AL |
to germ65
said by germ65:But seriously, "they don't seem to have a better solution"? Really? They can't think of a better solution??? Did Comcast put a former airline exec in charge of their customer service?
You don't think that contacting the customer regarding a service appointment to fix a noise issue would work way better?!? They do send emails...sometimes. I'm not trying to defend Comcasts customer service practice. I am sure there are better ways, but they do not seem to be implementing them. Multiple cable ISPs upgrading to 3.1 seem to be doing the same thing, filter now without the phone CSRs having access to the information. The only difference here is apparently they were not doing a sweep for an upgrade but trying to solve another customers issue. |
· actions · 2017-May-31 9:02 am · (locked) |
halfband
4 edits |
to germ65
The SNR numbers here are the red flag. Channel two is 38dB not bad and a pretty common value. Channel 12 is 27dB, not so good. Also look at how the channels surrounding channel 12 are impacted. This is a classic noise ingress signature. There are other channels also being impacted.
Here is what we do know:
The first tech filtered at least three taps, one of them yours. The second tech declared the first incompetent and removed them.
Now there is clearly a noise issue, it is right there in your signal specs. The noise could be originating from any one of the three of lines, any combination of the three, or possibly others which you were not told about. When the second tech removed the filters he could have exposed everyone in your local area and possibly the whole node to noise issues. I would be generous in stating that possibly the noise was not present when the second tech took the filters off, but it does not relieve him of the requirement to verify it is actually gone, and it is not. It is also possible the noise is coming from another location, but without additional data we do not know. The second tech still would be responsible for determining at least reporting the general location of the actual source if he believed the first was mistaken.
So one tech tried to minimize a noise problem with filters. Valid from a technical standpoint but not ideal from customer service. Comcast does a poor job communicating the issue, presumably to all customers (your original point, which has validity). The second tech removes the filters because "he does not see the problem" and throws the local drops back into the muck of the noise pool, and apparently the communication issues continue as no one from Comcast followed up on what the second tech did or resolves the conflict with the initial issue (unfortunately a big system with a lot of disconnected parts).
You have noise problems and CSRs will see that your area was checked and found to be clean by the last couple of techs. The only one who seemed to be on top of it in any way was tech 1, the guy who probably got reprimanded for shoddy work yesterday and will now quit. I feel for you getting this fixed.
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· actions · 2017-May-31 9:21 am · (locked) |
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germ65
Member
2017-May-31 12:55 pm
Thanks @halfband, yours is a clear and well thought out reply.
What would you say is the max. deviation of SNR that I should expect between channels? Also, right now I still have the attenuator in. Should I take it out?
I would like to understand two things:
1. The difference between a filter and a "block". A noise filter should not block my service and should not prevent the cable modem from locking (no green lights). Correct?
2. If I have a noise issue, that also should not prevent the cable modem from locking (no green lights), correct?
I have implemented a cron job that measures download speed every 30 min. using speedtest.net. The results are interesting, as it fluctuates quite a bit. I will post this later. |
· actions · 2017-May-31 12:55 pm · (locked) |
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Anone3a74
Anon
2017-May-31 1:12 pm
Please forgive if the question, and not just the thanks, was at Halfband. 1. A filter is like a pasta strainer, most signal gets through, but some is "filter"ed out. What signal is filtered depends on the filter. My guess is the filter they attached stopped the spectrum of signal that is being interfered with, which is the same signal your modem uses for downstream channels. A block terminates all signal used by the provider(Comcast). 2. IMO incorrect. Noise is just any signal that conflicts with another signal. If you listen to the radio and hear another station overlapping your station, that second station is "noise". The modem can't hear Comcast's signal over the foreign signal(ingress) on the frequency the ingress is on. That's why some of your downstream channels aren't effected at all. Just to give you a little context on the complexity of the matter, here is a graph of the entire RF spectrum controlled by the FCC. Feel free to look at the frequencies effecting your modem and compare them to the frequencies used by other things. That will give you a hint on what is leaking in, but it won't tell you where. That is where the Comcast technician comes in. » www.ntia.doc.gov/files/n ··· chrt.pdf |
· actions · 2017-May-31 1:12 pm · (locked) |
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halfband
Premium Member
join:2002-06-01
Huntsville, AL |
to germ65
said by germ65:What would you say is the max. deviation of SNR that I should expect between channels? There is no set number but anything more than 3dB kind of points to something going on. You definitely have something going on. Every 3dB drop in SNR is a doubling of the noise floor relative to the signal. The downstream signal is relatively flat so a 9dB drop is 8 times more noise. If the SNR is high to start with the system is more tolerant obviously, but noise is just that, like sound noise, an engine or fan, it just starts to drown out the conversation (your data) as it gets louder. said by germ65: Also, right now I still have the attenuator in. Should I take it out? With a downstream of 5dBm, no reason to remove it unless your upstream is in the 50+ range. It is not hurting anything. said by germ65:I would like to understand two things:
1. The difference between a filter and a "block". A noise filter should not block my service and should not prevent the cable modem from locking (no green lights). Correct? Basic filters attenuate (loosely block or try to eliminate) either above or below a specified frequency, or in kind of notch or slot at a frequency in the middle. The term "block" has multiple meanings, it can be a filter that kills any signal and prevents it from passing or it can be one that blocks those for a specific purpose (MOCA filter for example, blocks the MOCA frequencies of your cable box from leaving your home). A filter, either high or low pass types, can stop your modem from locking on by either disrupting the upstream (low frequency) or downstream (higher frequencies.) For your purpose, these filters would appear to be "a block" on your internet service, so yes it is possible for them to keep your modem from locking on. said by germ65:2. If I have a noise issue, that also should not prevent the cable modem from locking (no green lights), correct? If the SNR gets so low the data can not be detected in the mud of the background noise, a channel or multiple channels will loose lock. It can cause the modem to never lock, loose all down or upsteam lock, or in extreme cases cause the modem to reboot or start searching for usable downstream frequencies. If the modem keeps overall lock you still end up with latency (from packet retransmissions) and dropped packets. |
· actions · 2017-May-31 2:30 pm · (locked) |
| halfband |
halfband
Premium Member
2017-May-31 2:52 pm
This is overly technical includes government regs etc but covers a lot about leakage in general. I don't post it with the intention of having you read it but may give you feel for what techs are looking at. Check out the section near the end where they show sources of leakage in the cable plant. » www.arcomdigital.com/ass ··· e-wp.pdfLeakage is a nightmare if the cause is not obvious. It literally can be anywhere and everywhere. |
· actions · 2017-May-31 2:52 pm · (locked) |
