Topic '[Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping' in forum 'Home Improvement' - dslreports.com

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Wed, 18 Apr 2018 08:33:24 EDT

fresnoBob posted :

Then I guess you'll have to move to either
a) a place where there's never any snow, or
b) a place where it snows and everyone uses winter tires (and/or chains/studs
;)

The subway is walking distance(even for me).
Subway connects me to rail and rail connects me to air.
Just need the proper footwear for less than 500 meters of slippery sidewalks and roads.

However the subway is electric and has been shutdown due to ice(once I think).

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Tue, 17 Apr 2018 22:08:11 EDT

bkjohnson posted : Actually things are pretty good here. Don’t have nearly as much snow trouble as some of my children and their families who moved to Oregon.

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Tue, 17 Apr 2018 21:54:48 EDT

MaynardKrebs posted : Then I guess you'll have to move to either
a) a place where there's never any snow, or
b) a place where it snows and everyone uses winter tires (and/or chains/studs
;)

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Tue, 17 Apr 2018 21:29:43 EDT

bkjohnson posted : Not so easy. Have always had chains but can’t drive on a road with literally hundreds of wrecked cars. Have to see it to believe it. Municipalities do what they can, but it is often ice storm with people ice skating in the streets. My dad spent some time as a country doc who had to have chains because of mud on roads to get to patients in the summer and taught me about them. Also used them on fire trucks during time as a volunteer fireman and emt.

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Tue, 17 Apr 2018 21:14:53 EDT

MaynardKrebs posted : Alabama? Get proper snow tires and learn to drive in the winter. ;)

All Season tires are pretty much useless once the temperature drops below 7C. At that temperature all they are good for is keeping the floor of the car from touching the pavement.

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Tue, 17 Apr 2018 21:08:05 EDT

bkjohnson posted : Like the idea of an alternate place to sleep. Unfortunately, around here conditions that cause the power to go out also tend to make travel almost impossible, especially during ice or snow storms.

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Tue, 17 Apr 2018 18:09:10 EDT

fresnoBob posted :

said by MaynardKrebs:

There's nothing *specific* in the OHRC....You'll get what's justifiable under the circumstances - if you're mobile less than if your are not.

What is the OHRC?
Willl google OHRC.

I am ambulatory and will check with my CPAP Doctor.
Wonder if I can get my some remuneration for my air conditioning.
Its brutal trying to sleep with a silicone mask on those hot summer nights without AC.

Thanks for the info.

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Tue, 17 Apr 2018 17:55:53 EDT

MaynardKrebs posted : There's nothing *specific* in the OHRC, but there's established precedent that landlords have a "duty to accommodate" up to the point of hardship, ie. adding an electrical circuit running up the outside of the building to your suite from the generator (or inside the building to your suite) is NOT a hardship. It's only money. Read the OHRC and hunt for precedents.

If the landlord is given legit medical necessity - eg. you are bedridden and you are not 'mobile' except with extraordinary effort && you need the CPAP, then you'd probably get what you'd need - but probably not without a fight.

If you are ambulatory, then you're probably out of luck because as long as you had enough battery backup to get you through the 1st night (and maybe the 2nd night) the presumption would be that you could find temporary accommodation where there was power.

If your MD prescribes the CPAP with battery backup for 2 days power, then as long as your supplier gives you that, CRA should be good with it. You aren't going to get a 42U rack with a double-conversion UPS and 15 days of battery power out of that. You'll get what's justifiable under the circumstances - if you're mobile less than if your are not.

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Tue, 17 Apr 2018 17:35:01 EDT

fresnoBob posted :

said by MaynardKrebs:

Cool, citation please.

said by MaynardKrebs:

...but your MD should be able to 'prescribe' you a CPAP with an extended run UPS, and you'd get a medical deduction for that.

Cool, citation please.

said by MaynardKrebs:

- Solar on the apartment roof (HRC 'disability' clause) feeding batteries you keep in your suite or other agreed upon location.

Cool, citation please.
Its 12 floors up so not really practical though.

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Tue, 17 Apr 2018 16:40:24 EDT

MaynardKrebs posted :

said by fresnoBob:

A possible but not preferable option is to tap the building's emergency power.

Ontario Human Rights Code *might* permit you to tap into the emergency power under the 'disability' provisions. However, there would be no guarantees as to performance of the generator - reasonable efforts basis only on that score.

And what do you do if the diesel of the apartment generator runs out?

You do have options:
- your own battery backup to at least get you through one night (yes it would be costly for extended run-time UPS, but your MD should be able to 'prescribe' you a CPAP with an extended run UPS, and you'd get a medical deduction for that.

- Solar on the apartment roof (HRC 'disability' clause) feeding batteries you keep in your suite or other agreed upon location.

- Beyond that, you've hit on travel out of the region.

- Your use of the CPAP is whilst sleeping, so you should be able to find some local accommodation (friend/neighbour) where you pay for a generator and they bunk you.

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Fri, 06 Apr 2018 15:53:00 EDT

fresnoBob posted : I have been thinking about the safety concerns expressed here.

What if we someone created a new product with a more focused usage model something like the following.
UPS is grounded to the mains via its IEC inlet and the manual explains why the user should keep it connected to the mains even if mains power is unavailable. Another inlet is connected to the Gasoline generator that is powered up during the day to recharge the UPS and allow the user to do things that require more wattage.
The generator is connected to the UPS by a special cord that is NEMA 5-15P on the generator side and possibly neutrick powercon connector on the UPS side. The generator is thereby grounded to earth through the UPS.

During the day you run the noisy generator and do more power intensive chores.
At night you power off the generator and bring it inside so that it doesn't get stolen.
The manufacturer gets to sell you a proprietary cord.

I admit I am out of my depth here.
I would like to hear your thoughts, especially if this is not safe or practical.

Just noticed I posted the same drawing and a similar idea already.
Memory is not what it used to be.

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Mon, 26 Mar 2018 04:34:51 EDT

fresnoBob posted : This would also fit my usage model.
»humless.com/product/1500 ··· -64-kwh/

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Sun, 25 Mar 2018 21:56:38 EDT

Tursiops_G posted : It was the OP that brought up the grounding issue in the first place, so I assume that it does matter in his particular situation.

It also was stated before that 2-prong only devices would be safe with the lack of a ground.

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Sun, 25 Mar 2018 21:07:55 EDT

bkjohnson posted : As I mentioned earlier, all cpap machines that I have used have110/220 2 wire plugs that supply a 12volt dc power supply so there is no ground prong on the plug.

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Sun, 25 Mar 2018 19:57:56 EDT

fresnoBob posted : So I just ran another test on the chafon ups.
I put ~150W load and ran it down from full charge until it started beeping.
The good news... ~320WH usable capacity.
The bad news... One of the compact florescent lamps that I was using for load went dark a few minutes before the beeping started.
The even worse news... the voltage was 87VAC when the beeping started.
The review I am composing in my head must include the words "steaming pile of".

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Sun, 25 Mar 2018 12:21:39 EDT

fresnoBob posted : I summarise your answer to my question as...yes.

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Sun, 25 Mar 2018 11:39:25 EDT

radios1 posted :

said by fresnoBob:

said by Tursiops_G:

The danger is not with an ISOLATED power source (like a generator or inverter that is *Totally Disconnected* from the Mains), but when it's In Circuit *WITH* the Mains (Normal / standby Operation).

Your CPAP machine SHOULD have an established Safety Ground whenever it's being supplied with power from the Mains. If the standby power supply doesn't provide a pass-through Ground in that case, then It Is UNSAFE.

Ok please forgive me if I'm being thick.

The remedy redesign for the product is to...
bond all the grounds together
bond all the neutrals together
have 2 inlets
One that is always connected to mains power
The other can optionally be connected to an alternate power source like a gasoline generator

Would that be a safe design for a slightly different usage model?

I've never seen an inverter with 2 mains inputs.. but, if the inverter has a mains input, THEN you need to have everything grounded to the mains ground.. if the inverter don't connect to the mains, like if it has a wall wart, then you DON'T need a ground..

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Sun, 25 Mar 2018 11:22:09 EDT

fresnoBob posted :

said by Tursiops_G:

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Sun, 25 Mar 2018 09:21:32 EDT

radios1 posted :

said by Tursiops_G:

Would that be suitable for the OP's purpose (Redundant Online backup in case of power loss)?

Can the Yeti400 provide continuous load with the wall-wart connected to the mains without drawing down the batteries, or is the wall-wart just intended for recharging the batteries when the inverter is not providing load power?

the duty cycle of the inverter needs to be checked, it may get too hot running a full 8 hours!. and the wall-wart will only charge the batteries when the inverter is not being used to supply power, online inverters are much more expensive, and would have to use a much more significant power connection than what you see to handle the current to power the inverter..

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Sat, 24 Mar 2018 19:57:33 EDT

Tursiops_G posted : Would that be suitable for the OP's purpose (Redundant Online backup in case of power loss)?

Can the Yeti400 provide continuous load with the wall-wart connected to the mains without drawing down the batteries, or is the wall-wart just intended for recharging the batteries when the inverter is not providing load power?

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Sat, 24 Mar 2018 19:41:23 EDT

radios1 posted :

said by Tursiops_G:

if the inverter is connected to the mains with a wall wart, it's effectively isolated from the mains.. like the Yeti400 is.. it's actually double isolated from the mains, 1 within the wall wart, and 1 within the inverter, that makes 2 isolations..

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Sat, 24 Mar 2018 19:03:04 EDT

Tursiops_G posted : The danger is not with an ISOLATED power source (like a generator or inverter that is *Totally Disconnected* from the Mains), but when it's In Circuit *WITH* the Mains (Normal / standby Operation).

Your CPAP machine SHOULD have an established Safety Ground whenever it's being supplied with power from the Mains. If the standby power supply doesn't provide a pass-through Ground in that case, then It Is UNSAFE.

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Sat, 24 Mar 2018 18:44:09 EDT

fresnoBob posted :

said by Well Bonded:

By code they are required to be grounded, that is to say common to the ground pin of the UPS's plug.

That's not very useful if the ups is not plugged in right?

Is this unit more dangerous than a generator like this?

»www.youtube.com/watch?v= ··· TLdMjuqU

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Fri, 16 Mar 2018 11:48:25 EDT

radios1 posted :

said by LazMan:

Neat trick, putting a hole right below the non-grounded outlet.

Iâm guessing a CSA sticker wonât be found anywhere on that thing.

I don't see how it's possible to get a shock because the outlets are ungrounded. it's an isolated power supply, with no connection to the mains or ground, sort of like only connecting to one terminal of a battery, you can't get a shock.. now, if the unit had a 120v socket for the charging cable, that's a different story since you WOULD have a connection to the mains there..

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Fri, 16 Mar 2018 10:18:33 EDT

LazMan posted : Neat trick, putting a hole right below the non-grounded outlet.

I’m guessing a CSA sticker won’t be found anywhere on that thing.

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Fri, 16 Mar 2018 10:11:29 EDT

fresnoBob posted : Further investigation shows that none of the products in the table are grounded to earth.
At least one of them claims "internal ground" or words to similar effect.
Notice the outlets are not nema 5-15R.
Does that mean the whole class of products is unsafe?

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Thu, 15 Mar 2018 17:28:32 EDT

fresnoBob posted : Actually that is not my original question.
I wanted to get help with the yellow cells in the spread sheet.

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Thu, 15 Mar 2018 16:31:47 EDT

PSWired posted : Back to the OP's question. Here's what I would do:

Buy one of these:

»www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lit ··· 007NOUBA

Add as many of these as needed:

»www.amazon.com/Optima-Ba ··· a+yellow

This arrangement could be installed in a rubbermaid rolling under-bed container to keep it out of sight yet still easily accessible. Or in a utility closet, etc.

This will essentially provide long-runtime UPS capability with purpose-built parts and no user intervention. Add as many batteries as needed for your desired runtime at rated load. You'll need to add battery cables and a 12v fuse or fusible link.

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Thu, 15 Mar 2018 12:06:03 EDT

Tursiops_G posted :

said by fresnoBob:

Chafon support confirm that the 3 AC outlets are not grounded.

Then they are liars...

quote:
Additional Features:
1.More Versatility - 3 x AC Grounded NEMA 5-15R U.S. Standard Outlets.

It's garbage. Return it for refund. :huh:

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Thu, 15 Mar 2018 08:25:31 EDT

Well Bonded posted :

said by fresnoBob:

Possibly the code applies differently to the chafon because it is an "independent power source". It can generate electricity from solar.

If it has a 3 pin plug the ground(s) of all outlets must be connected to that grounding pin.

That's a NEMA requirement.

That unit is unsafe and probably Chinese designed.

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Thu, 15 Mar 2018 08:21:38 EDT

fresnoBob posted : What do these test results indicate?
The inverter is Rated Power:500W, Peak 1000W(Note:Not support rated over 500w Devices)

baseline
connect blueplanet em100 energy meter to mains power
set blueplanet display mode to watts
connect 20 Inch High Velocity Floor Fan to blueplanet em100
select fan speed 3
*note wattage is ~160w
tests
connect mains power to chafon unit
charging indicator = green
battery indicator = 100%
ac output switch=off
dc output switch=off
connect blueplanet to chafon unit
connect fan to blueplanet
set blueplanet display mode to watts
select fan speed 3
*note wattage is ~160w
ac output switch=on
*note wattage is ~160w
disconnect mains power
*note wattage is ~148w (fan runs audibly slower)

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Thu, 15 Mar 2018 08:13:23 EDT

fresnoBob posted : Possibly the code applies differently to the chafon because it is an "independent power source". It can generate electricity from solar.

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Thu, 15 Mar 2018 07:49:54 EDT

Well Bonded posted :

said by fresnoBob:

Chafon support confirm that the 3 AC outlets are not grounded.

That's not good.

Can anyone with a standard UPS please check to see if the grounds are open or not?

By code they are required to be grounded, that is to say common to the ground pin of the UPS's plug.

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Thu, 15 Mar 2018 07:08:05 EDT

fresnoBob posted :

said by tschmidt:

My guess with a standard residential grade UPS you will find input ground connected to ground on the load side outlets and neutral connected from input to output. Residential UPSes simply pass input to output and only switch on the inverter when power fails.

If I understand correctly that is how the chafon unit works.
with the inverter switched on and mains power available it simply passes input to output and only switches to inverter when power fails.

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Thu, 15 Mar 2018 07:05:29 EDT

tschmidt posted :

said by fresnoBob:

Can anyone with a standard UPS please check to see if the grounds are open or not?

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Thu, 15 Mar 2018 07:02:13 EDT

tschmidt posted :

said by fresnoBob:

If the is no path to ground(ac charging port cable is not plugged into the mains) then its probably a bad thing to have the possibility for the ground pins to be energised.

Just because the IEC is a male connector does not make it a suicide cable. Assuming the unit meets UL safety specs the hot and neutral input pins are not going to be energize under any condition. UL enforces clearance distances so the only way the the input pins to become energized is if they are shorted to the output while the output is active.

The safety ground conductor normally does not carry current. If it is used to bond everything together or act as a isolated supply it does not present a shock hazard because there needs to be a difference in potential for current to flow.

/tom

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Thu, 15 Mar 2018 05:42:47 EDT

fresnoBob posted : Chafon support confirm that the 3 AC outlets are not grounded.

Can anyone with a standard UPS please check to see if the grounds are open or not?

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Wed, 14 Mar 2018 23:09:11 EDT

Tursiops_G posted : Unless there is a Hardware Fault condition (where a short occurs between Line and Ground), there should be NO voltage potential on the Ground pin...
Possible? Yes... Touching the exposed IEC pins/power cable (While a Fault exists)?... Not likely, unless someone is VERY careless... :p

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Wed, 14 Mar 2018 23:07:02 EDT

bkjohnson posted : Fwiw. Last 2 cpaps i have used are 2 prong devices.

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Wed, 14 Mar 2018 22:56:23 EDT

fresnoBob posted : Something I have been thinking about...

If the is no path to ground(ac charging port cable is not plugged into the mains) then its probably a bad thing to have the possibility for the ground pins to be energised. A person could touch the iec connector or the exposed pins on the power cable connected to it.

Like a suicide cable »en.wiktionary.org/wiki/s ··· de_cable .

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Wed, 14 Mar 2018 22:26:05 EDT

fresnoBob posted :

said by tschmidt:

As a sanity you ought to check NEMA neutral (large slot) to NEMA neutral on another receptacle. If that has no continuity something really weird is going on.

This sanity test test shows continuity and meter to full scale.

said by tschmidt:

If it were my device I'd open it up for a physical inspection.

I would need the blessing of Chafon.
Don't want to void the warranty.

said by tschmidt:

Given you have no continuity between NEMA outlet grounds makes me think you have a genuine Chinesemum supply, please be wary.

Point taken.

said by tschmidt:

BTW did you intend test 1 & 5 to be the same?

Cut and paste error, please disregard the dupe.

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Wed, 14 Mar 2018 22:00:31 EDT

Tursiops_G posted : With the test results that you posted, I would consider that unit to be safe ONLY with 2-prong devices (NO Grounding requirement). :p

Even with that, I'd consider the Overall Quality of that unit to be Questionable at best. (and that's being Generous)... :uhh:

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Wed, 14 Mar 2018 21:44:36 EDT

tschmidt posted :

said by fresnoBob:

results inconclusive

Strange results. As a sanity you ought to check NEMA neutral (large slot) to NEMA neutral on another receptacle. If that has no continuity something really weird is going on.

If it were my device I'd open it up for a physical inspection.

Given you have no continuity between NEMA outlet grounds makes me think you have a genuine Chinesemum supply, please be wary. Electrical safety is not something low end manufactures are noted.

BTW did you intend test 1 & 5 to be the same?

/tom

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Wed, 14 Mar 2018 21:23:44 EDT

fresnoBob posted :

said by tschmidt:

Unless your probe had difficulty making contact with the ground terminal. To verify that is not the case stick a probe into the ground of one outlet and the other prove in the ground of one of the other two outlets. If you don't get a reading it indicates you are having problem making contact with the ground contact.So for test #2 with the device off measure resistance from the neutral side of one of the load outlet (larger slot) and the socket's ground. My guess you will find it has a very low resistance.

test results
turn ac off
turn dc off
unplug from mains power
d-1st nema 5-15R ground to 2nd nema 5-15R ground
no continuity
d-iec ground to 1st nema 5-15R ground
no continuity
d-iec ground to 2nd nema 5-15R ground
no continuity
d-iec ground to 3rd nema 5-15R ground
no continuity
d-1st nema 5-15R ground to 2nd nema 5-15R ground
no continuity
d-1st nema 5-15R ground to 1nd nema 5-15R neutral(larger slot)
no continuity

results inconclusive

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Wed, 14 Mar 2018 19:54:57 EDT

dennismurphy posted : Fast
Cheap
Right

Pick two.

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Wed, 14 Mar 2018 19:01:41 EDT

fresnoBob posted : Sure plenty of those are viable but not as flexible and more expensive.

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Wed, 14 Mar 2018 18:48:47 EDT

dennismurphy posted : None of these are viable?

»www.cpap.com/cpap-power.php

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Wed, 14 Mar 2018 18:35:30 EDT

tschmidt posted :

said by fresnoBob:

The device showed open ground whether the solar generator was connected to the mains or not.
Is this correct and safe?

To summarize the many technobabble posts we have bandied about in this thread:.

1) If there is continuity between the power inlet and the load outlets then the manufacture should have connected power inlet ground to load ground.

2) If the supply is isolated from mains (no continuity between inlet and outlet side hot and neutral) then the manufacture could consider the unit as separately derived. That simply means there is no conductive connection between load and input side of the device. In that case the manufacture should have connected load side outlet ground to load side neutral, just like one would expect with a generator. This insures in the event of a hot wire fault to the metallic case of a tool the grounding conductor is able to carry enough current to trip the over-current device (fused or circuit breaker) to render it safe.

3) This is not my day job but I would think even with an isolated output the manufacturer should have connected load safety ground to input safety ground. Why you might ask. Let’s say you have a mains connected device that has a fault and one or more exposed parts are now at mains potential. If the UPS extends safety ground then if the faulty device comes into contact with anything metallic on the UPS load side there would be a low enough impedance back to the main power source to trip the over-current device.

Bottom line you want the grounding conductor (officially called the equipment grounding conductor) EGC to connect back to the power source so if a downstream device fails and creates a shock hazard enough current will flow to trip over-current protection.

Second bottom line you want to bond everything metallic together so if any part becomes accidentally energized the bonding mechanism is able to carry enough current to trip over-current protection.

If you think of it in those two terms the technobabble should begin to make sense.

/tom

Re: [Generators] Solar generators comparison shopping

Wed, 14 Mar 2018 17:20:51 EDT

tschmidt posted : Oh I get it. I assume (know what they say) by grounded they simply mean the unit is equipped with NEMA three wire grounded receptacles vs two wire ungrounded, but perhaps I'm reading to much into the datasheet.

If you can operated it Safty that is good enough for me. ;)

/tom