SparkChaser Premium Member join:2000-06-06 Downingtown, PA 1 edit |
[Electrical] Anybody try one of these 'Sense energy monitor'?Over the years, all I ever heard of was TED. Now I see this » sense.com/What's unique is that it claims that it learns the signature of different loads and therefore can tell you what is running. quote: Sense is a small but powerful computer installed in your electrical panel by a licensed electrician, usually in less than 30 minutes. Using two clamp-on sensors and a 240v breaker, the Sense monitor samples current and voltage one million times per second to determine where your energy is going.
Anyone try one of these? |
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PSWired join:2006-03-26 Annapolis, MD
7 recommendations |
Yes, I have one, and have been meaning to post about it here for a while now. I've found it to be very useful. It is very simple to install: 2x CTs around your main panel feed (they are split core so you don't need to change any wiring), 2x 18AWG power wires to a 2 pole breaker, and a 1/2" KO in the panel for the wifi antenna to stick out of. There are no individual CTs for other loads unless you have solar or some other generation source at your house. It uses machine learning algorithms to identify and characterize the devices in your house. You set it up with an app via bluetooth, then it connects to your home wifi. You need to have good wifi coverage at your electric panel for this to work right. Learning your devices takes from a day to 4+ months depending on the type of device and how often it's used. The easiest to identify devices are motors or other inductive loads that have a unique startup signature. Even better if they cycle often, because this gives the ML algorithms more datapoints in a smaller amount of time. My dehumidifier, which cycles on and off nearly 100 times per day, was found right away, while my sump pump, which is only on every few days for 10 seconds, took months to ID. It does okay with resistive loads but sometimes gets them mixed up. My stove gets confused with the nespresso machine often. The sense team is working on getting better at disambiguating similar devices such as multiple identical AC units in a single house. For example, they're starting to look at which phase the loads are presented on, which will let them distinguish between my stove and nespresso machine eventually. It's not a perfect system and there are certain devices that Sense will probably never be able to identify. LED lighting (and most things with a switching power supply) is really hard since there isn't a unique signature to "listen" for. Sense is instead using other strategies such as listening for network traffic that indicates a device has turned on (Smart TVs) or integrating with smart devices (Hue Lighting). They've finally gotten my electric car ID'd, but this is a very recent development and it's not really working well yet. You can build alerts in the app to send you a notification, for example, if the refrigerator has been on for more than 2 hours straight, or off for over 6 hours. You can also integrate with IFTTT for fancier automation tasks. The app is great for tracking usage history and seeing how much gets used by what, and when.
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9 recommendations |
to SparkChaser
I have a diy one and it's a nice gadget for few weeks. After you find out some numbers it becomes useless, you're not going to wash clothes less often, stop taking showers or not use your central air. It is what it is. |
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PSWired join:2006-03-26 Annapolis, MD 1 edit
4 recommendations |
I agree that unless you've got something crazy going on, it's probably not going to pay for itself in any reasonable amount of time through altered usage habits. But if you do your alerting right, it could definitely make a "save" that pays for itself. Here are some examples, from failing freezers to clogged septic drain fields to an open utility neutral. The developers are working on automating the detection of some of the failure scenarios for common appliances. » community.sense.com/t/sa ··· ool/1805» community.sense.com/t/se ··· zer/3269» community.sense.com/t/se ··· k/3115/2» community.sense.com/t/se ··· eld/2672» community.sense.com/t/se ··· ing/1490» community.sense.com/t/se ··· -us/2420» community.sense.com/t/se ··· ral/2029 |
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SparkChaser Premium Member join:2000-06-06 Downingtown, PA |
to PSWired
said by PSWired:Yes, I have one, and have been meaning to post about it here for a while now. I've found it to be very useful. Thanks for the info. I wasn't looking to save money with it. Just curiosity on what is happening. |
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dmagerl Premium Member join:2007-08-06 Woodstock, IL
5 recommendations |
to SparkChaser
It's a neat device, its been really fun to play with, but as for saving energy.... not so much.
I've had mine for around a year and a half now and fully 70% of my energy usage falls into the "other" or "always on" categories. "Other" is devices it hasnt yet detected and "always on' is the devices that it cant detect because they're always on..
It hasnt detected things like the electric car charger, TVs, lights, washer, dryer, ceiling fans, computers, printers. So these are lumped into the "other" category.
It has detected things like furnace, water heater, aquarium heater, dishwasher, garage door opener, fridge, fridge lights, well pump.
It has detected and then forgotten the oven, dryer, and microwave.
The "always on" category is the only place you have of tweaking your usage to reduce power. As someone already said, you arent going to stop using the oven to reduce your electric bill. In that regard, its been sort of eye opening to see how high the vampire drain is in my house. Mine shows 300 watts of always on current. Sense is a poor tool for determining vampire drains. You basically have to walk around to each device with a kill-a-watt meter and measure each device individually. Again, there's very little you can do to reduce these parasitic drains. You arent going to unplug your refrigerator to reduce its 14 watt always on current drain. You arent going to unplug the garage door opener to reduce its 10 watt always on drain. Other than making a mental note to buy more energy efficient appliances next time, you're basically stuck with what you have. I have made some small savings by putting rarely used devices on timers. My furnace has a 7 watt always on drain so I make sure to flip its power switch off during the summer if I dont need it.
So if you want the reputation of being the neighborhood nerd at your next homeowners association meeting, go ahead and buy one. If you want to be "that guy" at work and bore all your coworkers with your power consumption graphs for the last month, buy one. If you're planning on saving a lot of money, meh, you're not going to. It is a neat gadget to play with though. |
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PSWired join:2006-03-26 Annapolis, MD |
A couple comments:
You can sift through your always-on load with Sense manually by using the real-time power meter readout/chart and turning things off. It will tell you the change when you flip the breaker off or unplug the device. No kill-a-watt needed.
I’ve been able to cut down some of the always on recently by using sensing power strips to control other devices. For example have the power strip kill power to my home theater equipment until the TV is switched on.
If you have a home automation system and really want to get into it, you can set up smart plugs to cut off unneeded loads while you’re not home. Cable boxes are a good candidate there. |
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SparkChaser Premium Member join:2000-06-06 Downingtown, PA |
to dmagerl
said by dmagerl:you want the reputation of being the neighborhood nerd at your next homeowners association meeting, go ahead and buy one. If you want to be "that guy" at work and bore all your coworkers with your power consumption graphs for the last month, buy one. If you're planning on saving a lot of money, meh, you're not going to. It is a neat gadget to play with though. In the winter it will have a hard time since most of our usage is resistance and I believe with little difference to detect. You hit it correctly, it's the Nerd factor. |
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·Consolidated Com.. ·Republic Wireless ·Hollis Hosting
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to PSWired
I heard about this technology several years ago and was skeptical as to how well it would work. Nice to hear real world experience.
That being said until energy consuming devices have some form of built in communication I don't see this being very effective and accurate. Having communicating devices opens up all sorts of possibilities for detailed monitoring and power control. That will be important if utilities implement demand based metering for residential customers as they do for industrial and to limit peak load when running backup generator or battery energy storage devices.
I've been toying with getting one but so far have resorted to using a clamp on amp meter every once an a while.
I'd like to know more about the cell phone app. Are you able to access the system from anywhere or just while at home on your LAN. If it has Internet access how is data and access to your home network protected?
/tom |
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PSWired join:2006-03-26 Annapolis, MD
3 recommendations |
Re: built-in communication for energy-consuming devices, that is quickly becoming a reality. Sense already can integrate with hue lighting so that it can get realtime data on which lights are on when to augment its direct measurements. They're working on integration with other networked energy users (smart thermostats and EV chargers come to mind) now. Even without an active integration, Sense can listen to local network activity (if you enable the feature) to "hear" TVs and other networked devices turning on and off.
Re: the app, you can use it anywhere, this is a cloud service. The monitor connects to the Sense servers hosted at Amazon and uploads its data. Then the app connects to the cloud servers. You need an Internet connection for it to work--there is no local mode. Like any of these cloud service companies, your only assurance that data is protected is through the company's privacy policy. And even then, that requires a lot of trust that the company is adhering to the policy. I will say that I get the feeling Sense is pretty serious about keeping user data private. When you open up a ticket with their support team, they will ask for your written permission before accessing any stored data to perform troubleshooting, which is at least a sign that they've got some training and layers of protection going on. |
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to SparkChaser
PSWired, thank you for your detailed comments on this gadget, and pictures. I always wanted one, not to save energy but for my curiosity. I love mechanical and construction type stuff so was wondering whether I should buy this.
My concern is the amount of bandwidth on the wifi network needed. We don't have very good companies for the internet in my area - Google Fiber is taking forever to come. |
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PhoenixDownFIOS is Awesome Premium Member join:2003-06-08 Fresh Meadows, NY
1 recommendation |
to PSWired
said by PSWired:Yes, I have one, and have been meaning to post about it here for a while now. Thank you for your review. Have you found yourself being able to reduce your energy usage with this tool -- outside of say a broken fridge that is running constantly? |
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PSWired join:2006-03-26 Annapolis, MD |
to Universe93B
said by Universe93B:My concern is the amount of bandwidth on the wifi network needed. We don't have very good companies for the internet in my area - Google Fiber is taking forever to come. My understanding is that the device uploads a decent amount of data when it's first installed, because it's sending all of your switching event samples out to their cloud servers for analysis. The sampling rate is 1MHz so there's a good bit of data there. As the device identifies devices, the "device models" are downloaded to the local monitor and are processed without uploading data, so the usage should go down over time. If you're on a metered connection, I'd think twice, but I think you'll be fine on any modern broadband connection. |
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PSWired
1 recommendation |
to PhoenixDown
said by PhoenixDown:Thank you for your review. Have you found yourself being able to reduce your energy usage with this tool -- outside of say a broken fridge that is running constantly? Personally, no, not really. I was pretty aware of what uses how much in general even before Sense, so YMMV. The always-on devices are an eye opener. Over 25% of my monthly usage is from always-on electronics. I have been able to cut down on that a little, but not enough to really make a dent. |
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contsole Premium Member join:2003-12-30 Newington, CT |
to SparkChaser
Is there no way for you to manually identify loads that Sense is having trouble with? |
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PSWired join:2006-03-26 Annapolis, MD |
said by contsole:Is there no way for you to manually identify loads that Sense is having trouble with? No, there’s not. That’s not how these machine learning algorithms work. They need a lot of data of the device working in its normal cycles to build the device model. Manually switching a device on and off to “train” the monitor does not provide the correct type of data for the ML model to be built. |
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Anonymous_Anonymous Premium Member join:2004-06-21 127.0.0.1 4 edits |
to SparkChaser
yes those are real why do you think they installed smart meters
so thye can spy on what is used
it's for future use to SHUT down 'smart' appliances etc.. under a "flexalert" or
Charge you based on what type of device is used.
they want to be like your [insert any phone co here ] phone or [insert any cable co here ] cable company to nickel and dime you..
you want to charge that $1,000 iphone ? it will cost you a extra 0.03 perkwh premium additional charge on top of the normal rate
sorry that will be the future of billing. |
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to PSWired
said by PSWired:a 1/2" KO in the panel for the wifi antenna to stick out of. I too saw an ad for this and read thru the lit. I said "No" to this because, with my data rack two feet away from my load center, it seems silly that this has to communicate with the WAP upstairs. It could, no problem, and I understand the universality and simplicity of WiFi, but for devices in fixed locations, I always prefer Ethernet. I made an exception when I bought in to Wemo, because although they don't move, adding low-voltage to a 125-volt box isn't going to look good. I have had a MyQ garage door system for years with an Ethernet connection. Months ago Chamberlain sent me a new base unit that is compatible with Apple or whatever, for free. I opened it up, saw no Ethernet jack, only WiFi, and put it back in the box. One more proprietary, un-troubleshootable failure point, I don't need. Every DIY energy-monitoring system that I've seen has at least one of these drawbacks: 1. Require a subscription 2. Doesn't have an Ethernet port 3. Priced out of the 'merely curious' range. 4. Requires me to set up a Raspberry Pi server, install a neural implant in my cat, or whatever. So I'm still waiting for somebody who will let me have my cake and eat it, too. |
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PSWired join:2006-03-26 Annapolis, MD
3 recommendations |
I suspect that running a copper ethernet line into your service entrance enclosure opens up a big NEC can of worms that is much easier to avoid by using their wifi antenna that's part of the listed assembly.
That said, wired ethernet would be a better solution if it weren't for the code and safety issues. |
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said by PSWired:avoid by using their wifi antenna that's part of the listed assembly. Without a doubt, they avoid a lot of practical and regulatory issues by doing WiFI only. If I had bought this unit, I would not have put it inside the load center enclosure anyway. I would have run the leads thru a KO and conduit and mounted the bracket next to the load center. Have any of these monitor businesses managed to become sustainable at a reasonable profit? When I see stuff like this I think they're getting closer, but $300 for the unit and $100 - $200 for licensed installation is probably more than most people figure they'd save in a residence within a year or two. Especially since you're not saving anything if you find out everything is like you thought. |
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PSWired join:2006-03-26 Annapolis, MD |
Not sure what the long term business model is. I can't imagine there's much hardware cost in the monitor itself, so $300 a pop might work out long term if they come out with new hardware versions every few years that encourage some upgrades. I think the real story is in the IP though- Sense is the only company that has this tech working to any reasonable degree, and I'm sure they have plenty of patents in the works. It's ripe for purchase by a bigger company. They just raised an $18M series B round, and Schneider Electric (owns APC, etc.) was a leader in that.
Re: saving money, I see it like the fancy smart thermostats. They aren't going to save you much if any more than a $30 programmable thermostat, but they look good, are much more pleasant to use, and have some remote monitoring and integration features. That market is alive and well. |
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said by PSWired:... fancy smart thermostats ... aren't going to save you much ... but ... are much more pleasant to use, and have some remote monitoring and integration features. That market is alive and well. WAF on the smart thermostats is through the roof. Though she couldn't care less when away from home. And she only swears at & tries to provoke Siri and Alexa. But she would have spent twice as much just to be able to control heat & A/C from her iPad. Ultimately, you're right. I suspect that the IP will be used in an intelligent load center, something like that, by a larger player. With a subscription, of course! |
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jig join:2001-01-05 Hacienda Heights, CA |
to SparkChaser
excellent thread, thanks!
i have a system that talks directly to the utility's smart meter, and i can get up to 5 second resolution or thereabouts if i want. it's tied into my smart home controller, so i can use that data to control some loads, but i don't have granularity on load draw or a way to bring machine learning to bear (other than hand coding it myself). it's pretty easy to recognize most of the major players, though.
i like having the data handy, but I haven't done anything interesting with it yet. i will eventually use it to track down a fairly high minimum draw issue i've been trying to track down... and i think i'll set up an old iPad to display some stuff.
my plan is also to use it to quantify how helpful an attic fan can be (and at what times) when trying to assist the HVAC to keep the home comfortable. it'll be used to characterize new appliances as well. |
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ptrowskiGot Helix? Premium Member join:2005-03-14 Woodstock, CT
7 recommendations |
to Anonymous_
said by Anonymous_:yes those are real why do you think they installed smart meters
so thye can spy on what is used
it's for future use to SHUT down 'smart' appliances etc.. under a "flexalert" or
Charge you based on what type of device is used.
they want to be like your [insert any phone co here ] phone or [insert any cable co here ] cable company to nickel and dime you..
you want to charge that $1,000 iphone ? it will cost you a extra 0.03 perkwh premium additional charge on top of the normal rate
sorry that will be the future of billing. No, no it won't. Sorry. |
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scooper join:2000-07-11 Kansas City, KS ·Google Fiber
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to SparkChaser
I haven't looked into the Sense system, but several years ago, in my old NC house, I had a TED5000 (one of the early versions of that model).
We used it to identify loads and whether or not it would be worth it to change our electric rate plan to a Time Of Use plan (it was). It was easy to tell when the electric waterheater came on, and the same for the heatpump. Other appliances we weren't so worried about, except for the pool pump. We ended up putting the waterheater and pool pump on timers, left the heatpump alone, and just waited on the clothes dryer usage until we were on off peak rates (usually weekends).
In summary, if you're observant and clever on your use of the sensor, you can do alot with just a single sensor on the main breakers. If your power company has a smart meter that makes it easy to view near-realtime usage, you could use that as well. I haven't made a decision about the current place we live at, but based on our TED 5000 experiance, we can make some general assumptions. |
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markf join:2008-01-24 Scarborough, ON |
to SparkChaser
My favourite device like this was the Blue Line Energy Monitor.
Like everyone else, the new models communicate online, but the older model communicated with an in-home display. The simplicity of that was that I knew for example when the basement dweller left the heating on based on usage, when the dryer was running when it shouldn't or if something was running that shouldn't have been at a glance. It also gave a decent estimate of electricity used for the month that was accurate enough without having to open an app or any of that. It did have an online connection that would connect to various cloud services like Microsoft Hohm, Google Power something, People Power, some other ones, but the only decent one was Eyedro. Since it relied on third party services, they kept shutting down or getting shut out which devalued that aspect of the device. Now they run their own cloud service but I haven't evaluated it yet.
The sensor was simply a sensor that went on the electricity meter itself, easy to install, no electrician or electrical knowledge necessary. Unfortunately water would get into them and fry them.
Right now I don't have one and miss it. If I could set up one of these apps to work on an "always on" device that would be great. Maybe one day I'll figure out how to get the screen on a plugged in Android device to stay on permanently and run one of these devices with feedback through an app in my house again. |
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Anonymous_Anonymous Premium Member join:2004-06-21 127.0.0.1 |
to ptrowski
said by ptrowski:said by Anonymous_:yes those are real why do you think they installed smart meters
so thye can spy on what is used
it's for future use to SHUT down 'smart' appliances etc.. under a "flexalert" or
Charge you based on what type of device is used.
they want to be like your [insert any phone co here ] phone or [insert any cable co here ] cable company to nickel and dime you..
you want to charge that $1,000 iphone ? it will cost you a extra 0.03 perkwh premium additional charge on top of the normal rate
sorry that will be the future of billing. No, no it won't. Sorry. sorry they would prefer to bill you on the device being used.. which means by "power factor" as well |
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ptrowskiGot Helix? Premium Member join:2005-03-14 Woodstock, CT
5 recommendations |
ptrowski
Premium Member
2018-Oct-18 6:48 pm
Won't happen. Take off the tin foil hat for a bit and go play outside. |
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to PSWired
said by PSWired:I can't imagine there's much hardware cost in the monitor itself, I don't know about that. The 1 MHz sample rate is a killer. You have 4 measurements to make every sample period. Could be 4 A to D's or just one that they switch between. Regardless, that's 4 million samples/sec. If you have 16 bits each, that's 8 MB per second and uploading would take 64 Mbps, so they're not uploading the data continuously, implying there's a decent amount of processing power in the box. And you'd want to do RMS calculations, which could be done in hardware or software. Even a 240 kHz sample rate would divide an A/C half cycle into 2000 points, which should be plenty for what they're doing. Who knows, maybe they're discarding 75% of the samples. EDIT: Their careers page mentions FFTs, so that's a decent amount of processing required. |
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Anonymous_Anonymous Premium Member join:2004-06-21 127.0.0.1 |
not if the text data is compressed |
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