BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT ARRIS SB6141
Asus RT-AC68
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to Packeteers
Re: Re : USA needs fiber planThere's no back room agreement, they've found many people don't care about upload or they are a monopoly so they have little incentive to rebuild their entire plant to 5-85 small node in order to offer decent uploads. 1000/100 on cable would he possible, but require a lot of CAPEX. |
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 Packeteers
Premium Member
join:2005-06-18
Forest Hills, NY ·Verizon FiOS
Asus RT-AC3100
(Software) Asuswrt-Merlin
4 edits |
said by BiggA:they've found many people don't care about upload that's a ridiculous assumption when you consider none of them even offer it as an option, so they can't really confirm if consumer want upload. there are dozens of dslr posters who pay the upsell to the next cabletv tier only for a bit more upload. if you've ever monitored your bandwidth consumption patterns (on fiber) you'd notice a 10:1.5 down:up use pattern, which i'm sure every isp knows about, and is why cable's typical 200:10 makes no sense as it should be at least 200:30 - so people who recognize this simply upsell 300:20 for no other reason than the upload to make at least the first 130 of that download fully usable. this is also why the fcc originally settled on 25:3 being "broadband" and not 25:1, because even they realized there was a 10:1.5 correlation. |
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rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO |
Are you asserting the 200/10 Spectrum connection I have cannot fully utilize the 200 down because the upload speed is too slow? |
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BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT ARRIS SB6141
Asus RT-AC68
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to Packeteers
They've found in FiOS markets that most people don't care that much, or the ones that do would go with fiber anyway. If many people cared about upload, they would be running those markets with at least 1000/100 available with 5-85 fiber deep or EPON.
100% agree about upselling upload in monopoly markets. |
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Packeteers
Premium Member
join:2005-06-18
Forest Hills, NY ·Verizon FiOS
Asus RT-AC3100
(Software) Asuswrt-Merlin
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to rradina
said by rradina:cannot fully utilize the 200 down bingo  however most hardware and software adapt using rescheduling, buffering and automatically lowering resolutions and/or frame skipping, so they don't stop working, they simply manage to work below their full bandwidth potential. if you have lan qos control by mac in your router, you can simulate this effect and see for yourself how easily this can happen. |
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BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT ARRIS SB6141
Asus RT-AC68
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BiggA
Premium Member
2019-Mar-25 9:48 am
That's not true at all. You need 1mbps upload per 66mbps down for TCP Ack packets. I've actually tested it. A gigabit connection would download just fine with a 15mbps upload, 19mbps if you have bonded gig coming out of it on Comcast (about 1250mbps).
That being said, a 10 or 20mbps upload can easily get congested with multiple users utilizing it simultaneously.
Upload is import for actually uploading things like online backup, Dropbox, iCloud, YouTube, Google Photos, etc. |
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Packeteers
Premium Member
join:2005-06-18
Forest Hills, NY ·Verizon FiOS
Asus RT-AC3100
(Software) Asuswrt-Merlin
4 edits |
said by BiggA:10 or 20mbps upload can easily get congested with multiple users utilizing it simultaneously. perhaps that's what i'm seeing, so it may not be individual apps, rather how they collectively share limited upload. either way, if you are stuck with 200:10, you won't efficiently use half the download you pay for with a house full of varied bandwidth consumers. and while we may test things using pure downloads and speedtests, that's NOT what most of our online traffic is regularly doing. throw a teen in using skype, another playing a twitch shooter chatting with his squad, while dad's ip security cam archives to the cloud and you'll see such lame 10mbps upload get maxed out continuously. |
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to Packeteers
said by Packeteers:said by BiggA:they've found many people don't care about upload that's a ridiculous assumption when you consider none of them even offer it as an option, so they can't really confirm if consumer want upload. there are dozens of dslr posters Spend hundreds of millions to please dozens of a niche segment? |
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rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO  ·Charter
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to Packeteers
I've never had a problem utilizing the full 200Mbps. When I download Windows updates from Microsoft, it always completely saturates the connection with 200+Mbps transfer speeds.
SpeedTests generally bench 215Mbps.
While I wish I had more than 10Mbps upload, it's only a issue when one of my son's syncs their cloud drive and saturates the upload. (When that happens for more than a few minutes, I log into the router and hard throttle them to 5Mbps. |
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 Simba7I Void Warranties
join:2003-03-24
Billings, MT |
to nondo
said by nondo:Spend hundreds of millions to please dozens of a niche segment? Not really a "niche" market when more and more services are becoming "cloud based". You need upload as well as download. |
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BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT ARRIS SB6141
Asus RT-AC68
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to Packeteers
Yeah, if one person saves a big file to their Dropbox it could reduce download speeds significantly for the rest of the users. Upload jamming is not new and we've had it since the days of 1.5/256 cable internet. It's just gotten worse with cloud and even more asymmetrical tiers.
That's true for some households. I have definitely been able to Max out a 250/10 connection on the downstream for long periods of time, but that's only because other users weren't doing much with it at that point. |
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| BiggA |
to nondo
said by nondo:Spend hundreds of millions to please dozens of a niche segment? The problem is that they are upload limited and capacity is a problem. They keep throwing more DS channels but they have to split nodes to address US as long as they don't go to mid- or high-split. |
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dtv757
join:2008-09-20
Virginia Beach, VA |
to rradina
Exact cable upload is trash
If u had fiber u would have symmetrical speeds like 200/200 or 900/900 |
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Anonb4f87
Anon
2019-Mar-25 6:03 pm
Just because you have riber doesnt mean you have symmetrical speeds. |
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 Smith6612
MVM
join:2008-02-01
North Tonawanda, NY
Ubee E31U2V1
Ubiquiti UniFi AP-AC-HD
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to BiggA
And Nest Cameras and Ring Doorbells. People seem obsessed with those these days. But also because they are easy to set up, and don't require maintaining a server at home. A friend of mine wishes Spectrum offered more upload, because he would start to feel lag in his games if he had more than two Nest cameras connected. This is on a 100/10 connection. Sure he can drop the quality down or leave it on adaptive quality, but you REALLY don't want to trust a camera that can't record a clear picture at every single time of the day. At high quality, the Nest cameras use around 3-4Mbps if there is a lot of activity going on in the area it's recording. A windy day or snowy day is enough to keep the upload pegged at the full rate. Sunny days with no motion? You're looking at maybe 400kbps sustained. I've offered to install a wired PoE-powered camera system with an on-site recorder, but apparently paying for a subscription to store data on the cloud every month is more appealing. At least there's off-site backup  |
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BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT ARRIS SB6141
Asus RT-AC68
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BiggA
Premium Member
2019-Mar-25 11:26 pm
said by Smith6612:And Nest Cameras and Ring Doorbells. People seem obsessed with those these days. But also because they are easy to set up, and don't require maintaining a server at home. Oh yeah, you get a lot of IoT stuff, and you need that upload. You can get the gigabit tier, and you get anywhere from 20-40mbps depending on the provider, but it's often ridiculously expensive. Unless you're in one of the few areas that doesn't have it yet. EDIT: Better buy Unlimited data too, because those two cameras are going to use a couple of TB of data per month. Even if they're just motion activated, still a few hundred GB. |
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sd70mac
Premium Member
join:2015-10-18
Woodstock, IL Netgear CM1200
Linksys WRT1900ACS
Ooma Telo
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to BiggA
There is some kind of agreement that precludes Comcast and Charter from overbuilding each other more than a little. It is very unusual for there to be more than two wireline ISPs serving an area, typically a telephone company and a cable company. There are exceptions (Wide Open West, Google Fiber, Grande Communications/Wave Broadband/RCN, etc. are all overbuilders) but they are just that, exceptions. |
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| sd70mac |
to Anonb4f87
I believe that Metronet Fiber is asymmetric (1000/250, for example), although still a better ratio than cable. |
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| sd70mac |
to BiggA
Charter Spectrum has Unlimited data included on all tiers thanks to their merger agreement to buy Time Warner Cable, which is just as well for their customers. |
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 ·CenturyLink
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to BiggA
yeap i shot both 2k and 4k. then also my network camera feed for house and my mothers. the network cam take a decent amount of data. the 2k and 4k content.... yeah i am going to need a way better connection i have atm to even upload it. massive amounts of data |
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BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT ARRIS SB6141
Asus RT-AC68
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to sd70mac
said by sd70mac:There is some kind of agreement that precludes Comcast and Charter from overbuilding each other more than a little. It is very unusual for there to be more than two wireline ISPs serving an area, typically a telephone company and a cable company. There are exceptions (Wide Open West, Google Fiber, Grande Communications/Wave Broadband/RCN, etc. are all overbuilders) but they are just that, exceptions. I think that has to do with not counting overbuilds towards merger build-out numbers. There's otherwise no prohibition on overbuilds. Comcast is doing a big edge-out overbuild of Atlantic Broadband in CT. I wish they would do one over Cox, but I don't think they will, as Cox is baby Comcast and licenses X1 from them. |
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| BiggA |
to sd70mac
said by sd70mac:Charter Spectrum has Unlimited data included on all tiers thanks to their merger agreement to buy Time Warner Cable, which is just as well for their customers. Until the merger conditions time out and Rutledge is gone. |
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dtv757
join:2008-09-20
Virginia Beach, VA |
to BiggA
Right but if u had a FTTH connection u would have symmetrical uploads 100/100 300/300. 900/900 etc
Plus phones do a lot of uploading now a days too , iCloud back up Google photos etc . Imagine doing an iCloud back up for the 1st time via cable internet ... fail. Would take hours with 10-35 mbps upload |
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however most hardware and software adapt using rescheduling, buffering and automatically lowering resolutions and/or frame skipping, so they don't stop working, they simply manage to work below their full bandwidth potential. if you have lan qos control by mac in your router, you can simulate this effect and see for yourself how easily this can happen.
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