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camper
just visiting this planet
Premium Member
join:2010-03-21
Bethel, CT

8 recommendations

camper

Premium Member

The spy in your wallet: Credit cards have a privacy problem

 
»www.washingtonpost.com/t ··· problem/


...In a privacy experiment, we bought one banana with the new Apple Card — and another with the Amazon Prime Rewards Visa from Chase. Here’s who tracked, mined and shared our data....

With my banana test — two bananas, one purchased with the popular Chase Amazon Prime Rewards Visa and the other with Apple’s Mastercard — I hoped to uncover the secret life of my credit card data. But in this murky industry, I was only partly successful. Unlike my other recent technology experiments, such as watching what my iPhone does while I sleep, I couldn’t hack into my cards to follow the data.

Instead, I asked insiders and privacy advocates to help identify the types of companies that had given themselves access to my swipe for purposes unrelated to payment and preventing fraud. “Where does it end? Nobody really knows,” says Ted Rossman, an analyst at comparison site CreditCards.com.

I pored over these companies’ privacy policies. Then I asked more than two dozen to get specific about what they actually do with our transactions. What data are they sharing and with whom?

Some didn’t answer. Others sent me to a Bermuda Triangle of legalese where few straight answers escaped alive. In 2019, it’s hard to trust companies that don’t think they owe us clarity about data....



sumware
join:2019-05-02

11 recommendations

sumware

Member

Which is why using cash whenever possible is the personal privacy and security way to go.
InternetJeff
I'm your huckleberry.
join:2001-09-25
.

5 recommendations

InternetJeff

Member

said by sumware:

Which is why using cash whenever possible is the personal privacy and security way to go.

^^^^^
THIS


Too many people worship at the altar of the Finance Industrial Complex. They feed their info in return for "perks" and become the product.

mackey
Premium Member
join:2007-08-20

11 recommendations

mackey to sumware

Premium Member

to sumware
said by sumware:

Which is why using cash whenever possible is the personal privacy and security way to go.

Privacy yes, security no.

sumware
join:2019-05-02

sumware

Member

said by mackey:

Privacy yes, security no.

Why do you believe that using a credit card is more secure?

mackey
Premium Member
join:2007-08-20

13 recommendations

mackey

Premium Member

I don't think anyone ever got jumped because someone saw them flash a stack of credit cards. I'm not out a dime if I drop/lose my card. If the merchant screws up I can still get my money back even if they don't want to make it right.

sumware
join:2019-05-02

1 edit

4 recommendations

sumware

Member

said by mackey:

I don't think anyone ever got jumped because someone saw them flash a stack of credit cards. I'm not out a dime if I drop/lose my card. If the merchant screws up I can still get my money back even if they don't want to make it right.

Well, OK.

But there does exist incredibly destructive credit card fraud, scams, phishing, skimmers, and over 23 million stolen credit cards are being traded on the Dark Web.

So yes, there is a huge market for stolen cards and people do get jumped when flashing their cards (although the flashing part is not a required prerequisite)...

Not to mention all the lovely and legal credit card data mining and profiling by the usual corporate gangs.

mackey
Premium Member
join:2007-08-20

13 recommendations

mackey

Premium Member

Except by federal law you are not liable for fraudulent transactions, so if your card or card # is stolen you just dispute those transactions.
Thistool
join:2013-12-05
Auburn, WA

2 recommendations

Thistool to InternetJeff

Member

to InternetJeff
Just out of curiosity how is this any different then our ISP, Google, Amazon, Netflix, BOA, Costco, Kroger's, on and on. For as long as any vendor has recognized profitability over our third party information. They have sold it.

While you can certainly support a valid argument to limit your digital footprint. No social media. Little to no online presence. God forbid one credit card. If your extremely frugal cash payment for resident.

Eventually that information through public records hits the net. While I can certainly appreciate the need to be more careful and responsible about your personal information and sharing it. In 2019 how would you suggest complete protection without exiting society and living off grid ??

owlyn
MVM
join:2004-06-05
Newtown, PA

6 recommendations

owlyn to camper

MVM

to camper
This is nothing new. Credit card companies have been mining our purchases for decades. Before that, it was magazine subscriptions being mined as far back as at least the 1950s. Get over it.
Dodge
Premium Member
join:2002-11-27

3 recommendations

Dodge to InternetJeff

Premium Member

to InternetJeff
said by InternetJeff:

^^^^^
THIS


Too many people worship at the altar of the Finance Industrial Complex. They feed their info in return for "perks" and become the product.

So let me get this straight. You have multiple businesses, across multiple states (this is your own statements by the way), and you don't have a single credit card?
RogerD
join:2008-07-15
Fort Lauderdale, FL

RogerD to camper

Member

to camper
said by camper:

 
»www.washingtonpost.com/t ··· problem/


...In a privacy experiment, we bought one banana with the new Apple Card — and another with the Amazon Prime Rewards Visa from Chase. Here’s who tracked, mined and shared our data....

With my banana test — two bananas, one purchased with the popular Chase Amazon Prime Rewards Visa and the other with Apple’s Mastercard — I hoped to uncover the secret life of my credit card data. But in this murky industry, I was only partly successful. Unlike my other recent technology experiments, such as watching what my iPhone does while I sleep, I couldn’t hack into my cards to follow the data.

Instead, I asked insiders and privacy advocates to help identify the types of companies that had given themselves access to my swipe for purposes unrelated to payment and preventing fraud. “Where does it end? Nobody really knows,” says Ted Rossman, an analyst at comparison site CreditCards.com.

I pored over these companies’ privacy policies. Then I asked more than two dozen to get specific about what they actually do with our transactions. What data are they sharing and with whom?

Some didn’t answer. Others sent me to a Bermuda Triangle of legalese where few straight answers escaped alive. In 2019, it’s hard to trust companies that don’t think they owe us clarity about data....

What was your "partly successful" revelation?

Also, realize there is no one entity involved here. You and you bank (card issuer) have an agreement but many more are in the mix. To begin with the merchant has agreed to accept your card as payment and they have an agreement with a card processing agent to deposit funds (after all their fees and those of the card) into the merchant's bank account. The payment is then passed through the banking system to the issuing bank with one to many possible institutions involved before the transaction shows up on your account. With all the electronic transactions today, that may be minutes (by the way, a credit does not necessarily follow that same path and can take weeks before hitting your account).

It is reasonable to expect all players here will have some concern for your privacy and the accuracy of their actions. But it only takes one individual along the way the feels their need for your data overrides your need to privacy. So there is some leap of faith needed when you turn that card over to someone to pay for any merchandise/service.

camper
just visiting this planet
Premium Member
join:2010-03-21
Bethel, CT

3 recommendations

camper

Premium Member

said by RogerD:

What was your "partly successful" revelation?

 

Perhaps you should ask that question of the person who wrote "I was only partly successful," i.e., the author of the article.

Or read the article.
camper

2 recommendations

camper to owlyn

Premium Member

to owlyn
said by owlyn:

This is nothing new. Credit card companies have been mining our purchases for decades.

 

Quite true.

But now, it appears the data has a new life beyond what the credit card companies mine.

It is not the mining that concerns me, but the number of entities with their hands in the cookie jar and extent of the subsequent distribution of the mined data.

InternetJeff
I'm your huckleberry.
join:2001-09-25
.

2 recommendations

InternetJeff to Dodge

Member

to Dodge
said by Dodge:

said by InternetJeff:

^^^^^
THIS


Too many people worship at the altar of the Finance Industrial Complex. They feed their info in return for "perks" and become the product.

So let me get this straight. You have multiple businesses, across multiple states (this is your own statements by the way), and you don't have a single credit card?

I do not use a single personal credit card. Zero, none, nada. Period.
Dodge
Premium Member
join:2002-11-27

3 recommendations

Dodge

Premium Member

said by InternetJeff:

I do not use a single personal credit card. Zero, none, nada. Period

Love the qualifier "personal", so you do have business cards? Enough with BS and "[fill in a random word here] industrial complexes"
InternetJeff
I'm your huckleberry.
join:2001-09-25
.

2 recommendations

InternetJeff

Member

We use business debit cards. A lot of businesses do. And they are locked down for pre-approved spending.
Dodge
Premium Member
join:2002-11-27

2 recommendations

Dodge

Premium Member

said by InternetJeff:

We use business debit cards. A lot of businesses do. And they are locked down for pre-approved spending.

What they are locked down to is irrelevant, you can have credit cards locked down. The point being is that they are still most likely used through visa / mastercard / etc networks, which makes them the same as a credit card as far as reporting and data mining goes. So outside of giving up rewards for no apparent reason, you are still the product.
InternetJeff
I'm your huckleberry.
join:2001-09-25
.

1 edit

3 recommendations

InternetJeff

Member

That's not how our services work. Unlike standard Visa and MasterCard network processing for credit transactions, our PIN-based debit transactions are processed primarily through Interlink (and/or another network that escapes me at the moment).

There are traditionally two separate processing systems for credit versus debit. There is a different level of information "exposure" in using a secured business debit account than a traditional credit card account. Unlike credit card accounts, payment and credit information is not reported to credit reporting agencies for debit card use. It's not revolving debt, and not reported as such.
Dodge
Premium Member
join:2002-11-27

1 recommendation

Dodge

Premium Member

said by InternetJeff:

That's not how our services work. Unlike standard Visa and MasterCard network processing for credit transactions, our PIN-based debit transactions are processed primarily through Interlink (and/or another network that escapes me at the moment).

There are traditionally two separate processing systems for credit versus debit. There is a different level of information "exposure" in using a secured business debit account than a traditional credit card account. Unlike credit card accounts, payment and credit information is not reported to credit reporting agencies for debit card use. It's not revolving debt, and not reported as such.

Who cares about credit reporting agencies? We are talking about transaction data. Visa, masterfcard, interlink, smoke signals, someone is handling the data, and that someone is selling that data for all it's worth.

I don't know what kind of weed farms you are running, but I find everything you are saying highly unlikely to exist in the real world.
InternetJeff
I'm your huckleberry.
join:2001-09-25
.

2 recommendations

InternetJeff

Member

Sure. Whatever.

Maybe you've missed it, but significant and high profile breaches have been from credit reporting agencies of late. Ever heard of Equifax? Nothing to see there, eh?

So I'm not going to argue about a fraction of our finances that run through debit cards, as the vast majority of our transactions are electronic invoicing EFT/wire directly between our bank and customers / suppliers.

So I guess the vast majority of business is unlikely to exist in your real world. I'm sitting here running business that does not exist. Feel better now. Blocked for 30.
Dodge
Premium Member
join:2002-11-27

2 recommendations

Dodge

Premium Member

said by InternetJeff:

Maybe you've missed it, but significant and high profile breaches have been from credit reporting agencies of late. Ever heard of Equifax? Nothing to see there, eh?

"Significant and high profile", fantastic. It's one breach. How many people were compromised by all other breaches? The breaches that happen daily. All your supposed customers that you deal with through EFT / wire, how well do they protect your data? What about the banks on both sides?
said by InternetJeff:

So I'm not going to argue about a fraction of our finances that run through debit cards, as the vast majority of our transactions are electronic invoicing EFT/wire directly between our bank and customers / suppliers.

EFT is not "worshipping at Finance Industrial Complex"? Seriously? You think your bank is not compiling your spending habits, and just to be clear by your I mean you, your business, your associations, etc..
said by InternetJeff:

So I guess the vast majority of business is unlikely to exist in your real world.

If a business can get "perks" that you are so disgusted by, there is no reason for them not to enjoy them. We pay anyone possible by credit cards, and rewards alone cover a ton of operating expenses. There is literally no reason not do it.
Thistool
join:2013-12-05
Auburn, WA

6 recommendations

Thistool to InternetJeff

Member

to InternetJeff
Lol no one is denying that serious credit cards and credit companies havnt been breached.

Yet so have many banks. If you make a financial transaction digital it is tracked. Regrettably if it's tracked it "could be hacked".

So unless your going all cash for all transactions. Someone can track and sell it. Nature of doing business 2019.

»www.bloomberg.com/news/a ··· rch-says

sumware
join:2019-05-02

4 recommendations

sumware

Member

said by Thistool:

So unless your going all cash for all transactions. Someone can track and sell it. Nature of doing business 2019.

Agreed. Many of us merely attempt to mitigate personal intrusions, profiling, tracking and hacking as much as possible in our $$$ surveillance happy world.

dslcreature
Premium Member
join:2010-07-10
Seattle, WA

2 recommendations

dslcreature to Dodge

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to Dodge
said by Dodge:

If a business can get "perks" that you are so disgusted by, there is no reason for them not to enjoy them. We pay anyone possible by credit cards, and rewards alone cover a ton of operating expenses. There is literally no reason not do it.

Hopefully soon credit cards will be substantially replaced with real-time bank to bank transfers. Credit cards can't be run out of town quickly enough.

How these kickback schemes are even allowed on antitrust grounds is beyond me.

george927
my current approval rating- 32%
join:2016-08-09

george927

Member

said by dslcreature:

said by Dodge:

If a business can get "perks" that you are so disgusted by, there is no reason for them not to enjoy them. We pay anyone possible by credit cards, and rewards alone cover a ton of operating expenses. There is literally no reason not do it.

Hopefully soon credit cards will be substantially replaced with real-time bank to bank transfers. Credit cards can't be run out of town quickly enough.

How these kickback schemes are even allowed on antitrust grounds is beyond me.

Agree- This cannot arrive fast enough. Real time bank-to-bank transfers will replace the money-changer middlemen. Perhaps the rise of digital currency will kill these economic parasites.
Thistool
join:2013-12-05
Auburn, WA

1 recommendation

Thistool to dslcreature

Member

to dslcreature
Well unfortunately there was no real-time server availability in the 1980's. So physically scanning a carbon copy of the credit card was the only option.

Banks are by nature and some desire still using and holding to outdated worst practice.

Heck I assisted last week with upgrading a Chase Bank from 1 t1 to 2 t1 bonded. Meanwhile they had fiber in the building.

While you can lead a horse to water, you can't make them drink.

george927
my current approval rating- 32%
join:2016-08-09

george927

Member

This is not the 1980s
Thistool
join:2013-12-05
Auburn, WA

1 recommendation

Thistool

Member

You don't need to tell me that. Lol I would honestly prefer real-time banking as suggested. However it's not I whom writes the rules. Or is even subject to enforce them. That would be our law makers.

Wanting someone to change something is much easier. Then actually forcing or expecting them to change. Perhaps it will come with age. Yet bank will continue to get by with the bare minimum until otherwise require to do so.

Your always free to vote with your wallet and find a financial institution that suits not only your needs, yet also wants.
Dodge
Premium Member
join:2002-11-27

5 recommendations

Dodge to george927

Premium Member

to george927
said by george927:

Real time bank-to-bank transfers will replace the money-changer middlemen.

That has the same problem as debit card - money is gone from your account immediately. In cases of fraud good luck chasing after your money, whereas with a credit card you are not out any money.

To me personally, any account that I've ever written a check from or exposed it for incoming wire, or exposed it in any other way, has close to no money in it, ever. The account only gets funded if a check needs to be written because some archaic business like Jeff's can't get with a program, or it gets funded by incoming wire, which gets promptly removed from the account.

Outside of irrational hatred of banks, credit cards have no downsides when used responsibly. Debit, checks, ETF have actually more inherent risks that need to be managed carefully, which means more time spent on something that shouldn't take time.