Topic 'Re: [HSI] Gig install fee' in forum 'Charter Spectrum ' - dslreports.com

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Sat, 31 Aug 2019 23:08:02 EDT

DocDrew posted :

said by toolman1990:

I wonder if Charter Communication's will lower or eliminate the installation fee on the Gig Tier when they complete the node+0 upgrades since their will be fewer homes served per node when those upgrades are completed.

Basically what happens is all the tiers will go up in speed but the higher tiers will still have installation costs. That was the process Charter started back in 2012 when standard was 30/5 and Ultra was 100/10.
»Charter to Now Charge $200 Activation Fee for 100 Mbps Tier [70] comments

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Sat, 31 Aug 2019 23:01:34 EDT

gtb posted :

said by toolman1990:

When? There is no target for an extensive N+0 deployment for Charter. There are certainly locations where they are at N+0 (or N+low) today, or may be tomorrow, but that is due to specific operational requirements rather than an active ongoing project to get fiber deep just because they can. If you are hoping for lower pricing/fees, you most likely will want to see something long before wide deployments of N+0 across the Charter footprint.

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Sat, 31 Aug 2019 22:03:40 EDT

toolman1990 posted : I wonder if Charter Communication's will lower or eliminate the installation fee on the Gig Tier when they complete the node+0 upgrades since their will be fewer homes served per node when those upgrades are completed.

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Sat, 31 Aug 2019 20:34:16 EDT

dc_dsl4 posted :

said by Anon39871 :

But the lower plans which is where the vast majority of the customers are Comcast pricing is more expensive especially if you use their modem.

The prices vary quite a lot based on the market, but Comcast standalone Internet starts at $50. Spectrum ranges from $65-125. In my market, Comcast is $50-105.

said by Anon39871 :

competition from fiber in which case usually the fiber is less expensive anyway

It's not...

Verizon FiOS is more expensive than Comcast once the promo pricing expires. Before that, they're both about the same. Which is why tons of people still have Comcast in this area, despite FiOS being available.

If FiOS was cheaper, Comcast would lose all of their customers in this area, since FiOS is obviously better. Comcast's only advantage is price.

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Sat, 31 Aug 2019 20:24:50 EDT

anon posted :

said by dc_dsl4:

They don't. Comcast doesn't charge installation fees for any of their tiers. You can even buy your own modem and self-install.

but if you don't want to do that you have to pay $13. Whereas Charter will provide you one as part of the plan cost

And the overall price of Comcast's gigabit is much lower than Spectrum's.

But the lower plans which is where the vast majority of the customers are Comcast pricing is more expensive especially if you use their modem.

And Comcast doesn't cap bandwidth in all markets.

Just most of them and those other markets will either eventually get capped or they have competition from fiber in which case usually the fiber is less expensive anyway

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Sat, 31 Aug 2019 16:58:04 EDT

dc_dsl4 posted : I know that Comcast's pricing doesn't vary at all here, even in the areas without FiOS (all of Baltimore, and much of Washington DC).

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Sat, 31 Aug 2019 16:53:08 EDT

gtb posted :

said by dc_dsl4:

Verizon

Comcast, Charter, and everyone else, tend to offer different pricing in extremely competitive areas (where competitive is down to the actual street address served; the next block over does not count). Those prices are not always advertised widely unless the entire area is served (because Charter does not want to make those living on the wrong side of the tracks green with envy or explain they are not good enough), but they do exist if you know how/where/when to ask. The lesson there is is Internet pricing is substantial consideration, chose the location you live wisely.

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Sat, 31 Aug 2019 16:44:04 EDT

dc_dsl4 posted : Verizon

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Sat, 31 Aug 2019 16:23:25 EDT

DocDrew posted :

said by dc_dsl4:

Weird. Gigabit is $80 for 2 years in my area, then it increases to $105.

What other provider is in the area?

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Sat, 31 Aug 2019 13:16:11 EDT

dc_dsl4 posted : Weird. Gigabit is $80 for 2 years in my area, then it increases to $105.

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Sat, 31 Aug 2019 13:14:45 EDT

DocDrew posted :

said by dc_dsl4:

None of those list the gigabit price. Maybe it's not offered in those markets? Gigabit Pro isn't the same as Gigabit.

I know they don't. Comcast locks down access to their price lists, making them harder to get. Most of those are from 2017, but the prices were frequently higher even then. Gigabit prices are between the 250 tier and Gigabit Pro, albeit closer to the 250 tier, but still higher than Spectrum Gig today.

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Sat, 31 Aug 2019 13:11:47 EDT

dc_dsl4 posted :

said by Nucleartx:

Comcast is $103 per month, modem price included, with promotion in Houston for Gig. The price from what I can tell goes up to $140 after the promotion period before fees.

Ouch. I didn't realize the prices varied so much. The promo price here is $80, and the full price is $105.

Spectrum's full price for gigabit is $125 in many markets.

said by Nucleartx:

Comcast installation charge for a tech to do it, $89.99, free for self install.

In my experience, they almost always waive the installation fee for new customers. I can't remember ever being charged an installation fee from any provider. That's one of the ways they try to attract new customers, waive the fee.

said by DocDrew:

What are those prices again?

None of those list the gigabit price. Maybe it's not offered in those markets? Gigabit Pro isn't the same as Gigabit.

[att=1]

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Sat, 31 Aug 2019 12:54:19 EDT

DocDrew posted :

said by dc_dsl4:

And the overall price of Comcast's gigabit is much lower than Spectrum's.

What are those prices again?
»www.spectrum.com/browse/ ··· ard.html
[att=1]

»www.seattle.gov/Document ··· 2018.pdf
[att=2]
»secure.xfinity.com/anon. ··· -001.PDF
»secure.xfinity.com/anon. ··· -006.PDF
»secure.xfinity.com/anon. ··· -016.PDF
»www.xfinity.com/support/ ··· ate-card

Comcast controls the number of Gig users through promo prices and contract lengths. They want more? They push promos. They want less, they let promos expire, don't push promos, or limit who can get the promos. They want to limit bandwidth capacity increase rates, they keep usage capped and don't increase the cap or they increase the cost of extra bandwidth. They don't expand zero-rating. Like I said it's strategic. All the providers do it in various ways.

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Sat, 31 Aug 2019 12:47:24 EDT

Nucleartx posted :

said by dc_dsl4:

They don't. Comcast doesn't charge installation fees for any of their tiers. You can even buy your own modem and self-install.

And the overall price of Comcast's gigabit is much lower than Spectrum's.

And Comcast doesn't cap bandwidth in all markets.

Comcast is $103 per month, modem price included, with promotion in Houston for Gig. The price from what I can tell goes up to $140 after the promotion period before fees.

Comcast can be very deceptive on what the rack rate pricing. To find out, you have to login to find the prices for your location only. The house next door could have better pricing if there is another provider.

Comcast installation charge for a tech to do it, $89.99, free for self install.

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Sat, 31 Aug 2019 12:15:52 EDT

dc_dsl4 posted : They don't. Comcast doesn't charge installation fees for any of their tiers. You can even buy your own modem and self-install.

And the overall price of Comcast's gigabit is much lower than Spectrum's.

And Comcast doesn't cap bandwidth in all markets.

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Sat, 31 Aug 2019 12:12:21 EDT

DocDrew posted :

said by dc_dsl4:

How else do you explain their $200 installation fee only for gigabit? It's designed only to discourage customers from that tier because they know their network can't handle too many customers on gigabit.

Comcast and other providers have no such fee.

Yes the fee is to slow the uptake of Gig customers so they don't have to increase bandwidth capacity as fast as they would without it. It's a strategic move to slow the rate of bandwidth capacity increases. Comcast does the same with higher tier fees and bandwidth caps. All ISPs have strategies to control the rate of bandwidth capacity increases. None can support large percentages of customers using their highest tier large amounts of time.

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Sat, 31 Aug 2019 11:00:31 EDT

dc_dsl4 posted : How else do you explain their $200 installation fee only for gigabit? It's designed only to discourage customers from that tier because they know their network can't handle too many customers on gigabit.

Comcast and other providers have no such fee.

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Sat, 31 Aug 2019 10:56:04 EDT

DocDrew posted :

said by terabitz:

We had a thread about this a couple of years ago on the matter.
»[Speed Issues] Charter CEO Admits Average DOCSIS Node Group is 500 Homes

Realize 500 homes is not 500 customers and a "node group" is not the same as customers per node. A node group is usually a 1-5 nodes combined so bandwidth isn't underutilized for a particular service port.

When I worked as a Maintenance tech 15 years ago, a good chunk of the nodes in my area were node+1 with 125 homes passed. Multiple nodes were combined to 1 pair of CMTS ports. We were doing a rebuild on exComcast nodes that were node+6 and becoming node+3. One area's 50 nodes became over 300 nodes in that project. At node+3 homes passed counts were around 250-300.

Those same nodes are capable of becoming 2 or 4 logical nodes in a single housing with an internal module change. TWC came in and I moved on to work a different job. Charter has since taken over those same areas but I still know some of the guys who work maintenance there and they've been doing logical node splits on the stuff I put in.

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Sat, 31 Aug 2019 10:55:43 EDT

dc_dsl4 posted :

said by Anon7db8b :

You're not using that ALL THE TIME.

So? During peak hours, many people are. Especially as more and more people drop cable TV and switch to streaming. Data usage is only increasing, and Charter is going to very quickly find that their network is inadequate.

I have a streaming TV provider (AT&T TV), and on top of that I have Netflix and stream video from lots of other websites too.

said by Anon7db8b :

And people are rarely watching 4K

Netflix has millions of customers on the 4K plan, and over 100 million 4K TVs have been sold so far.

said by Anon7db8b :

A cable company with 500 customers per node is being lazy and incompetent

I agree, and yet Charter admitted that 500 was their average number of customers per node, not the maximum. Which means there are actually nodes with more than 500.

»stopthecap.com/2017/02/1 ··· ighbors/

The point is, Charter is one of the only companies to charge a nonsense $200 "installation fee" for gigabit, and the only reason they do is because their network is already massively oversubscribed, and it's designed to discourage customers from signing up for that tier.

They simply wouldn't allow an entire neighborhood or city to sign up for gigabit. Their network couldn't handle it.

said by mattballew:

Honestly as long as I can get 80% of the speed I don’t care...

Most people do care, and want the bandwidth they pay for.

I don't mind sharing bandwidth as long as the ISP knows how to properly manage supply vs demand. Comcast has gotten very good at that, especially since they've gone to Node+0 in many areas. I haven't seen congestion on Comcast in 10 years, even on gigabit.

Charter clearly doesn't want to properly manage supply vs demand if they're letting 500+ customers share a node, and also selling people gigabit.

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Sat, 31 Aug 2019 10:33:19 EDT

mattballew posted : Honestly as long as I can get 80% of the speed I don’t care... I get there are other people on the same network using from it, it happens. I feel like 80% is a good margin for failure.

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Sat, 31 Aug 2019 10:23:33 EDT

terabitz posted :

said by Anon7db8b :

nods can have far few than 100 customers and definitely fewer than 500. A cable company with 500 customers per node is being lazy and incompetent

That's Charter. ;)

We had a thread about this a couple of years ago on the matter.
»[Speed Issues] Charter CEO Admits Average DOCSIS Node Group is 500 Homes

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Sat, 31 Aug 2019 10:21:40 EDT

anon posted :

said by dc_dsl4:

said by CableFreak:

No, it wouldn’t collapse. Users aren’t using 100 or 200 download as it is.

You're not using that ALL THE TIME. And people are rarely watching 4K and even if they are four 4K streams on Netflix is max of 60 Mbps. when downloading games on PSN or XBL I rarely get over 60 Mbps on a WIRED connection on 200 Mbps tier. Even when it's the only thing using internet

A cable node has at least 100 customers on it, but we know Spectrum oversubscribes their network, so I’m guessing something around 500 customers per node is typical for them in a city.

nods can have far few than 100 customers and definitely fewer than 500. A cable company with 500 customers per node is being lazy and incompetent

What’s the total bandwidth to a cable node? I’d guess probably 10Gbps? That means they can only have 10 gigabit customers per node without congestion, and no one else.

You're assuming someone is maxing out that 1 Gbps connection 24/7

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Sat, 31 Aug 2019 09:27:59 EDT

dc_dsl4 posted :

said by DocDrew:

A node these days probably averages 150-200 customers on it, less if it's a busy node, and more if it's a less utilized node.

That’s not what I’ve read.

100 customers is typical for Comcast where they’ve gone Node+0.

250-500 is still typical for other providers who haven’t gone Node+0.

And Spectrum’s congestion is clearly worse than Comcast. They haven’t gone Node+0, and they’re charging a $200 installation fee to discourage people from signing up for gigabit.

They would simply refuse if an entire neighborhood or city signed up for gigabit at the same time. Their network couldn’t handle it.

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Sat, 31 Aug 2019 02:17:38 EDT

DocDrew posted :

said by dc_dsl4:

A cable node has at least 100 customers on it, but we know Spectrum oversubscribes their network, so I’m guessing something around 500 customers per node is typical for them in a city.

What’s the total bandwidth to a cable node? I’d guess probably 10Gbps? That means they can only have 10 gigabit customers per node without congestion, and no one else.

Every residential ISP oversubscribes their network.

A node these days probably averages 150-200 customers on it, less if it's a busy node, and more if it's a less utilized node.

A cable node has more like 2.6Gbps data bandwidth if it has a 96Mhz OFDM and 32 QAM256 channels which is common right now, so a bit better than the downstream bandwidth on a FIOS GPON segment.

Luckily bandwidth utilization isn't a straight total bandwidth / max bandwidth per customer sort of calculation. There is a whole time aspect that has to be taken into account along with the bursty nature of most client/server connections. It's how ALL the ISPs can get away with higher than 2:1 oversubcription.

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Sat, 31 Aug 2019 00:20:14 EDT

dc_dsl4 posted :

said by CableFreak:

No, it wouldn’t collapse. Users aren’t using 100 or 200 download as it is.

They aren’t?

Spectrum offers 100 (now 200) Mbps as the minimum tier. Plenty of people max that out when downloading a large file, etc. Even more so when you have a family all streaming, etc. at the same time. Especially 4K.

A cable node has at least 100 customers on it, but we know Spectrum oversubscribes their network, so I’m guessing something around 500 customers per node is typical for them in a city.

What’s the total bandwidth to a cable node? I’d guess probably 10Gbps? That means they can only have 10 gigabit customers per node without congestion, and no one else.

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Fri, 30 Aug 2019 23:32:33 EDT

Nucleartx posted :

said by CableFreak:

But money is a factor. If you can’t afford $200, you don’t need gig speeds.

I've always wanted fast speeds and I've gotten a good job, I can afford the small luxuries. I still wouldn't pay $200 for the privilege of paying more per month.

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Fri, 30 Aug 2019 22:03:29 EDT

mattballew posted : Not a matter of can’t afford.. it’s a matter of actual value vs cost. That sort of mindset is why I CAN afford it. But I don’t value it.

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Fri, 30 Aug 2019 22:00:28 EDT

CableFreak posted : No, it wouldn’t collapse. Users aren’t using 100 or 200 download as it is.

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Fri, 30 Aug 2019 21:58:18 EDT

CableFreak posted : But money is a factor. If you can’t afford $200, you don’t need gig speeds.

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Fri, 30 Aug 2019 20:53:40 EDT

dc_dsl4 posted : They could manage slower symmetrical tiers like 50/50, 100/100, or maybe more without Node+0, but it's pretty much necessary to get symmetrical gigabit, or anything close to that. The other providers are waiting for Extended Spectrum DOCSIS, so they don't need to extend fiber deeper.

"To make FDX a reality, Cloonan explained, operators will need to be able to move quickly to a node+0 environment and be willing to upgrade their Cable Modem Termination Systems (CMTSs), nodes and CPE."

"Further out and currently in the research and development phase, Extended Spectrum DOCSIS, Cloonan said, may be better suited for cable operators that want assurances that their future high-capacity networks will work in existing node+X environments that may not support FDX operation, which requires node+0."

»www.multichannel.com/new ··· the-line

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Fri, 30 Aug 2019 20:47:26 EDT

mattballew posted : Well, I was only getting 300 down... now that I’ve been bumped to 400 I’m seeing 480 in real use... makes gig seem not worth it at this point. I’d only take it if the install fee was avoidable, which it appears it’s not.

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Fri, 30 Aug 2019 20:43:09 EDT

gtb posted :

said by dc_dsl4:

Node+0 is required to achieve fully symmetrical speeds

Well, maybe not. In controlled conditions N+2 has shown to be viable (in some cases) with more cost constrained equipment exchanges. Whether that survives larger real world (not idealized) plants is still not clear.

Comcast invested many (many many many) millions to be closer to N+0 in many locations where there is viable ROI. Charter has mostly chosen to make such investments. Perhaps they will be proven to have made the correct choice (tech only advances), or perhaps they will end up having to step up to N+0 if they actually want to be real players. In any case, if consumers actually increase average utilization (and not just peak), N+0 will be required more widely.

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Fri, 30 Aug 2019 14:29:52 EDT

dc_dsl4 posted :

said by terabitz:

Huh wonder when CableLabs decided to rename DOCSIS 3.1 Full Duplex to DOCSIS 4.0. I came across their page on the matter and didn't realize that they had renamed it.

»www.cablelabs.com/techno ··· chnology

Either way, Comcast has Node+0 deployments to assist in congestion in their gigabit markets, whereas I don't think Spectrum does.

Recently. They renamed it in June I believe.

»stopthecap.com/2019/06/2 ··· -coming/

So DOCSIS 4.0 is going to be symmetrical 10Gbps (per node, not per customer) and what was previously 4.0 (symmetrical 60Gbps) is now probably going to be DOCSIS 4.1, but I'm skeptical that any ISPs will actually deploy that. That's going to be more like 2025 and beyond, if it happens at all.

Node+0 is required to achieve fully symmetrical speeds, but other ISPs who aren't doing Node+0, like Spectrum, Cox, and others, can still use Extended Spectrum DOCSIS to get faster upload speeds.

We'll probably see tiers like 500/100 from Spectrum and others who aren't doing Node+0, while Comcast could do 500/500 or even symmetrical 1000/1000 once 4.0 is rolled out.

Looks like we should start seeing 4.0 in 2021 for actual customer use.

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Fri, 30 Aug 2019 14:20:18 EDT

terabitz posted :

said by dc_dsl4:

DOCSIS 4.0 should help with that, if Spectrum ever upgrades to it.

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Fri, 30 Aug 2019 12:49:57 EDT

dc_dsl4 posted : The $200 installation fee for gigabit has no other purpose than to discourage people from signing up for gigabit. There's nothing special about gigabit installation that costs them more. All they have to do is connect a modem, just like any other speed tier.

Spectrum oversubscribes their network in many areas (more demand than capacity), and they just don't have the capacity to offer gigabit to very many customers per node. Like although they offer gigabit to everyone in NYC and LA, if all of their customers in those cities actually signed up for gigabit, their network would totally collapse. They wouldn't allow that to happen, so I'd guess they'd just start rejecting people from gigabit at that point.

Comcast used to have capacity problems, but they've gotten much better. Even on gigabit, I've yet to see any congestion on Comcast. They don't charge any extra fees for gigabit like Spectrum does.

DOCSIS 4.0 should help with that, if Spectrum ever upgrades to it.

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Wed, 28 Aug 2019 17:25:55 EDT

maartena posted :

said by mattballew:

Seen it on reddit

Oh, then it MUST be true! :D

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Wed, 28 Aug 2019 17:25:28 EDT

maartena posted :

said by mattballew:

Mainly I need upload. Heard a rumor that the gig was moving to 100 up.

Not likely to happen for some time.... they are working on DOCSIS 3.1 symmetrical, but in reality this is probably at least a year, probably 2 years off.

But yeah, 35 Mbps is a lot better than 20 Mbps.... although you will likely find that if you max out your 400 Mbps downstream connection, you will have 8-10 Mbps of upload left in your 20 Mbps upload, where as you max out your 1 Gig connection you will likely have less than 5-6 Mbps left....

You need about 3% upload for downloading in tcp/ack requests, so if you plan to max that gig, you may have less upload left than you do now. ;) Just a consideration, as you have said upload is important.

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Wed, 28 Aug 2019 17:24:05 EDT

mattballew posted : Seen it on reddit, someone claiming to be an employee. YMMV on that one tho

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Wed, 28 Aug 2019 17:19:51 EDT

maartena posted :

said by Anon39871 :

They aint budging sorry. You got a 33% speed increase recently from 300 Mbps-400 Mbps and it's not enough? What can you on on Gig( actually 940 Mbps ) that you can't do on 400 Mbps. Just wondering what's worth paying an extra $420 a year.

Although not much, the upload increase from 20 to 35 alone might be worth it.

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Wed, 28 Aug 2019 17:15:54 EDT

anon posted :

said by mattballew:

Mainly I need upload. Heard a rumor that the gig was moving to 100 up.
Plus I do a lot of Plex things. When moving files waiting 2 hours instead of 4 would be nice.

Who said that? The same person at said "a lot" of people were getting bumped form 100 Mbps to 200 Mbps on the 27th? Is there any cable ISP that has anything close to 100 Mbps upload? Theoretically with only 4 channels on upload the max speed is 108 Mbps.

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Wed, 28 Aug 2019 15:29:17 EDT

InternetJeff posted : I remember not so long ago when legacy BHN 200Mbs was $300.

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Wed, 28 Aug 2019 14:03:40 EDT

DocDrew posted :

said by mattballew:

Heard a rumor that the gig was moving to 100 up.

Not ANY time in the next few years. The RF distribution system can't support 100 up without major changes. Even 50 upstream would be difficult in many areas for the foreseeable future

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Wed, 28 Aug 2019 14:01:41 EDT

mattballew posted : Mainly I need upload. Heard a rumor that the gig was moving to 100 up.
Plus I do a lot of Plex things. When moving files waiting 2 hours instead of 4 would be nice.

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Wed, 28 Aug 2019 13:42:03 EDT

reds91185 posted :

said by Anon39871 :

Some people just want the biggest or the fastest or the newest of whatever it happens to be and money isn't a factor.

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Wed, 28 Aug 2019 11:27:17 EDT

anon posted : They aint budging sorry. You got a 33% speed increase recently from 300 Mbps-400 Mbps and it's not enough? What can you on on Gig( actually 940 Mbps ) that you can't do on 400 Mbps. Just wondering what's worth paying an extra $420 a year.

Re: [HSI] Gig install fee

Wed, 28 Aug 2019 09:49:32 EDT

DocDrew posted : Save up for 4 months and pay the upgrade fee when you're ready?

[HSI] Gig install fee

Wed, 28 Aug 2019 03:04:03 EDT

mattballew posted : Back in December when they dropped the price on the install fee for the 300/20 speed to $49.99 i gladly paid and upgraded.. I’ve been on that since, and recently i noticed my speed was bumped to 400/20. I was told that once that bump happens, my area was ready for gig.. so i called, and sure enough I can upgrade to gig...
The dreaded $199 install fee is “Mandatory” though, and they wont even budge $50 even tho i already paid a $50 install fee..

Anyone had any luck getting them to budge on this? Or at the very least split it across 4 bills or something?

The rep i spoke with wasn’t willing to budge and offered no options, as usual.

Perhaps someone has some inside info on possible upcoming discounts on these fees? Anything here I’m grasping at straws.. lol