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to neufuse
Re: Data Cap expanding to Northeast?said by neufuse: should all parents be paying extra right now because their kid is forced into remote learning? Who do you think should pay for someone's extra use? Do you complain about paying extra for the water when your kid takes a shower? Or the extra electricity they use for the computer in that remote learning session? |
· actions · 2020-Nov-27 12:41 am · (locked) |
Smith6612 MVM join:2008-02-01 North Tonawanda, NY Ubiquiti Unifi Security Gateway Ubee E31U2V1 Ubiquiti UniFi AP-AC-HD
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Data is a different substance, and is in a different class of resource compared to the finite resources of water and electricity. Once you consume that water or that electric usage, the resources inputted never regenerate to their original form again. A data connection always returns to the original form the moment demand is reduced or removed. Internet circuits don't magically resize at Layer 1 or Layer 2 except for artificial reasons like cost savings on burstable circuits, or for reduced energy consumption when idle. So assuming you look at a technology like DOCSIS Or PON, the timeslots for sending and reception are always being produced at a fixed rate. If you don't use it, it's gone forever. |
· actions · 2020-Nov-27 2:06 am · (locked) |
neufuse join:2006-12-06 James Creek, PA |
to lesmikesell
this is different, this is something we are being forced into... no one is forcing a kid to take a shower... the kid goes to school or the parent gets in trouble
and just wait for computers to all work in the cloud like people are dreaming off like the old terminal days......... your desktop is on AWS or Azure, you only own a thin client... data usage will only go up for everything you do |
· actions · 2020-Nov-27 9:41 am · (locked) |
Devious Premium Member join:2002-08-22 Seattle, WA |
Devious
Premium Member
2020-Nov-27 10:10 am
said by neufuse:this is something we are being forced into Actually just being moved into what the majority of Comcast customers have had to adhere to for years. |
· actions · 2020-Nov-27 10:10 am · (locked) |
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to neufuse
said by neufuse:this is different, this is something we are being forced into... no one is forcing a kid to take a shower... the kid goes to school or the parent gets in trouble
and just wait for computers to all work in the cloud like people are dreaming off like the old terminal days......... your desktop is on AWS or Azure, you only own a thin client... data usage will only go up for everything you do Still, why shouldn't people who do not strain the system have lower rates? You might argue that taxpayers should fund kids education completely, but not other people on the same data service. As for working remotely - I've done that. Remote desktop protocols are really very efficient and generally only transfer keystrokes and the differences in screen updates. Not a problem unless you try to cram motion video through it. |
· actions · 2020-Nov-27 10:29 am · (locked) |
| lesmikesell |
to Smith6612
said by Smith6612:Data is a different substance, and is in a different class of resource compared to the finite resources of water and electricity. Once you consume that water or that electric usage, the resources inputted never regenerate to their original form again. A data connection always returns to the original form the moment demand is reduced or removed. Internet circuits don't magically resize at Layer 1 or Layer 2 except for artificial reasons like cost savings on burstable circuits, or for reduced energy consumption when idle. So assuming you look at a technology like DOCSIS Or PON, the timeslots for sending and reception are always being produced at a fixed rate. If you don't use it, it's gone forever. So your DOCIS slot gets your bits to the other end of the coax. Then what? Can you really argue that there is no extra cost associated with additional usage or the infrastructure to carry it? Or more to the point, that average users should have to pay extra to fund the people who strain the system? |
· actions · 2020-Nov-27 10:32 am · (locked) |
ARRIS S33
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to lesmikesell
said by lesmikesell:Still, why shouldn't people who do not strain the system have lower rates?. But they don't pay less. They pay the same. The companies that offer a 5 dollar rebate if they use less than 5 gb is a joke. People who pay for a slower speed pay less. |
· actions · 2020-Nov-27 10:54 am · (locked) |
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neufuse join:2006-12-06 James Creek, PA |
to Devious
yes, but what I am saying is the current cap is too low, not that the NE is special, remote schooling alone uses up the cap for an average family if they do video conferencing all day long every school day (which is exactly what my district is dong at least, I'm sure more then just my local district is doing this with synchronous education) |
· actions · 2020-Nov-27 11:42 am · (locked) |
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to videomatic3
said by videomatic3:said by lesmikesell:Still, why shouldn't people who do not strain the system have lower rates?. But they don't pay less. They pay the same. The companies that offer a 5 dollar rebate if they use less than 5 gb is a joke. People who pay for a slower speed pay less. I wouldn't say that - I love my T-mobile family plan that has a (probably promo only that you can't get any more) deal where you get $10 off for each line that uses less than 2Gb/mo. At least 2 of the 4 qualify every month, often 3 or 4 when we don't travel and are usually in wifi range. I wish all providers would to it that way - make the base price unlimited with no restrictions so you plan to pay that amount but give a discount for using less. |
· actions · 2020-Nov-27 11:46 am · (locked) |
| lesmikesell |
to neufuse
said by neufuse:yes, but what I am saying is the current cap is too low, not that the NE is special, remote schooling alone uses up the cap for an average family if they do video conferencing all day long every school day (which is exactly what my district is dong at least, I'm sure more then just my local district is doing this with synchronous education) And what I'm saying is that Comcast is going to make a certain profit margin one way or another. Why should the people who do not overload the system pay as much as those that do, for whatever reason? |
· actions · 2020-Nov-27 11:50 am · (locked) |
Smith6612 MVM join:2008-02-01 North Tonawanda, NY Ubiquiti Unifi Security Gateway Ubee E31U2V1 Ubiquiti UniFi AP-AC-HD
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to lesmikesell
The networks already do a great job in most areas dealing with the load. Data cap or not, they need to be managed and designed for smooth access during peak loads. Data caps do not address that, unless the providers want to cap only during peak hours like the satellite companies do. Which is going to confuse people as much as variable peak billing does for utilities. Outside of those peak hours, those heavy users aren't impacting anything.
Let's argue for roads instead. Being locked at home, should I pay extra on my taxes to cover the road repair bills that "essential workers" need to use to keep the country working twice a day, as weather and their usage destroys it? Unless these workers are making millions of dollars to fund those projects, I still would pay those taxes, knowing fully that not subsidizing it means toll roads and higher registration fees for me to actually use the roads are in the future, and expensive car repairs when there aren't a few millionaires who can provide the money to the town to fix the potholes each spring.
Data access is no different. If the unlimited for all, access for all model didn't work, we would have far fewer people using the Internet today. There is nothing else to subsidize. And to return to the road argument, the roads in my area started developing mysterious "bumps" in the road after last Spring when there was a lack of traffic on them. It's not that Tax money wasn't going into fixing them - it's that the lack of usage caused the road to no longer be "settled" into the ground. Some of these bumps are street wide, like some gas or water pipes lifted up or a cavity of water formed under the road during a freeze cycle, because of the lack of mechanical pressure changes occurring from automobiles. The towns haven't fixed all of them yet, but the bumps are certainly not good for suspensions. And back to the broadband argument, if only light usage is used on infrastructure, we won't know how adequate it is for surprise needs (like a pandemic) until everyone ends up stuck at home and demands access to keep things moving. For example, if the heavy user didn't notice that the node drops 6% of the packets on it during light usage, the e-mail crowd certainly wouldn't have noticed. Then suddenly the WFH crowd shows up, the node is the same, and everyone's unhappy. The providers with data caps had a harder time. Providers with unlimited access who neglected their infrastructure, got hit hard. The unlimited providers who turn a steady profit and continued investing in their infrastructure, handled the sudden shift in traffic very well. |
· actions · 2020-Nov-27 12:42 pm · (locked) |
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neufuse join:2006-12-06 James Creek, PA |
to lesmikesell
who's saying 1-2TB is even overloading the system? What is overloading the system is the people that use 1Gbps download constantly or 45Mbps upload constantly, not the people that use that spread out over time... With the systems that switched to N+0 this is even less of an issue. Those with 250 on a single node it's more of an issue. OFDM helped a lot with downloads so they don't overload what's available...
2TB a month is a whole 6Mbps constantly, that's hardly overloading a node
And for people that don't fit your overload the system criteria, they probably aren't paying for Gigabit, they probably have the lowest package (the majority of them at least)... so they technically are already paying less based on their usage because they chose to get a slower speed because they dont use as much / need as much |
· actions · 2020-Nov-27 1:50 pm · (locked) |
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to Smith6612
said by Smith6612:Data access is no different. If the unlimited for all, access for all model didn't work, we would have far fewer people using the Internet today. There is nothing else to subsidize. I don't believe that at all. I'd say it would have done better with lower rates for initial use and more for heavy users. Although the pricing that would make the most sense would be like other bulk pricing where the higher the volume the cheaper the unit price would be. |
· actions · 2020-Nov-27 2:34 pm · (locked) |
Smith6612 MVM join:2008-02-01 North Tonawanda, NY Ubiquiti Unifi Security Gateway Ubee E31U2V1 Ubiquiti UniFi AP-AC-HD
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Remember when people wouldn't buy broadband or dial-up access because spending 4 hours of time online actually cost a lot of money? In the 90s and even into the early 2000s, hourly access for both broadband and Dial-up was very common. Broadband didn't explode until those practices lessened and access became cheaper. Keeping in mind, the expensive part of the infrastructure was already paid for because the Telephone companies give everyone their own phone line (much of which was paid for by tax money), and Cable TV was booming where... *gasp* you can watch unlimited amounts of TV for one fixed price. Internet usage did not increase until unlimited/always on access actually became more widely available. And look at where it's gotten us today. The US leading in tech because we widely adopted such a model, and allowed a massive GDP industry form out of it.
Yes, I get that dial-up is a different animal with the fact that you're dealing with circuit switching and not packet switching. But the point stands. |
· actions · 2020-Nov-27 2:37 pm · (locked) |
Eth_Rem Premium Member join:2009-06-17 Littleton, CO ARRIS TG3482 Asus RT-AC68
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to videomatic3
said by videomatic3:said by lesmikesell:Still, why shouldn't people who do not strain the system have lower rates?. But they don't pay less. They pay the same. The companies that offer a 5 dollar rebate if they use less than 5 gb is a joke. People who pay for a slower speed pay less. They do pay less though because they don’t have to worry about the cap. If my roommates and I could get our bandwidth consumption under control I would love to put another $360 back in my pocket each year. It’s never going to happen though so I have just gotten used to paying that $30 (and before that, $50). |
· actions · 2020-Nov-27 2:37 pm · (locked) |
Devious Premium Member join:2002-08-22 Seattle, WA |
to neufuse
Video conferencing can usually be adjusted in the setting on how much bandwidth is consumed or you could always just pay for unlimited.
Myself I have Netflix and CBS-All Access in 4K Dolby Vision but have never gone over the cap. |
· actions · 2020-Nov-27 2:57 pm · (locked) |
neufuse join:2006-12-06 James Creek, PA 2 edits |
sounds like a solution until you realize that your district has locked out the settings so you can't change the video quality on chrome books they handed out.. they lock these down hard so kids don't mess with them...
and if you really watched netflix at 4K for 8hrs a day 25 days a month you'd be at 1.4TB of usage going by their own criteria... 4K video according to netflix uses a7GB per hour on average... I'm only saying 8hrs to compare to a student in class all day on a video call with 20 some participants in it
Google meet for example requires 3.2 mbps for outbound call and 6.5mbps for 20 participants that's 4.2GB per hour for class... at their low end it's still 2.2GB per hour for SD video still 440ish GB per month for a single kid
we have a school board meeting this week on how the district is going to handle this because our area is only comcast, we don't even have verizon DSL.... so it's at least on the agenda since they require syncronous (kids in all day watching a teacher on video) education right now
we've had a ton of parents complain about using their phones as hotspots and the outrageous costs that's causing for some since it's all they have in some spots where comcast doesn't even service... |
· actions · 2020-Nov-27 3:15 pm · (locked) |
ARRIS S33
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to Eth_Rem
said by Eth_Rem:said by videomatic3:said by lesmikesell:Still, why shouldn't people who do not strain the system have lower rates?. But they don't pay less. They pay the same. The companies that offer a 5 dollar rebate if they use less than 5 gb is a joke. People who pay for a slower speed pay less. They do pay less though because they don’t have to worry about the cap. If my roommates and I could get our bandwidth consumption under control I would love to put another $360 back in my pocket each year. It’s never going to happen though so I have just gotten used to paying that $30 (and before that, $50). But they don't. My parents pay 35 for the 25/3 package Let's say they get unlimited data for an extra 25 a month, thats a total of 60 a month, let's say they decide to max out their internet the entire month for no other reason other than to give comcast the middle finger, they can use a little under 10tb in a month. My aunt and uncle have the 200mbit package for 65 a month and use around 50-200 gb a month. Just because you're using more or less data doesn't mean you're paying more or less for your internet, sign up for a cheaper tier, keep the unlimited data and learn to use qos. |
· actions · 2020-Nov-27 3:17 pm · (locked) |
neufuse join:2006-12-06 James Creek, PA |
Just wait for the mandatory packages to come in... oh you have TV service? you want sports channels? well that requires Gigabit internet! I know it's a outrageous idea, but I can't put it past comcast, they pulled this stuff for people that wanted some triple play and quad play packages a few times already... |
· actions · 2020-Nov-27 3:28 pm · (locked) |
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to videomatic3
said by videomatic3:But they don't. My parents pay 35 for the 25/3 package Let's say they get unlimited data for an extra 25 a month, thats a total of 60 a month, let's say they decide to max out their internet the entire month for no other reason other than to give comcast the middle finger, they can use a little under 10tb in a month. My aunt and uncle have the 200mbit package for 65 a month and use around 50-200 gb a month. Just because you're using more or less data doesn't mean you're paying more or less for your internet, sign up for a cheaper tier, keep the unlimited data and learn to use qos. Would be cheaper to get Xfinity Prepaid unlimited 20mbps for $45 then paying $60 for unlimited 25mbps. |
· actions · 2020-Nov-27 3:34 pm · (locked) |
Devious Premium Member join:2002-08-22 Seattle, WA |
to neufuse
said by neufuse:2TB a month is a whole 6Mbps constantly, that's hardly overloading a node Seems like you are just counting the download. Anytime there is download there is also upload at the same time so your calculation is way off. Personally I am glad these areas who had unlimited will now have to either pay up for unlimited or watch their usage. If even one area of Comcast's customers has a cap then all areas should or you are discriminating against customers who have a cap. |
· actions · 2020-Nov-27 4:03 pm · (locked) |
Donut join:2005-06-27 Romulus, MI |
Donut
Member
2020-Nov-27 5:01 pm
Like you Im glad the Northeast is no longer getting a free lunch. If we have to be bent over monthly then they should too. |
· actions · 2020-Nov-27 5:01 pm · (locked) |
neufuse join:2006-12-06 James Creek, PA |
to Devious
I'm doing download and upload what makes you think otherwise (I'm fully aware of the whole 3-way handshake going on with every packet) ? Just because I said 6Mbps doesn't mean that's one direction... I mean 6Mbps total per second |
· actions · 2020-Nov-27 5:53 pm · (locked) |
bemis Premium Member join:2008-07-18 Sharon, MA |
to Donut
said by Devious:Personally I am glad these areas who had unlimited will now have to either pay up for unlimited or watch their usage. said by Donut:Like you Im glad the Northeast is no longer getting a free lunch. If we have to be bent over monthly then they should too. Wow... "I'm shafted so I'm glad you're going to be shafted now too..."  Personally I'm against them capping and charging overages to anyone. I'd much rather see them take the modern cell provider approach of throttling speed once a certain usage has been reached. I'd be fine with "Oh you hit 1.2TB this period so you're at 20% of your speed tier for the rest". The trouble is that they tighten their plan costs up so that there's essentially no split, and then they offer an all-or-nothing approach to handling data heavy users. Anyone who needs more than 1.5TB is looking at well over $100/mo just for internet. They are generally monopolies within their service area, so the individual has no real choice. DSL is a pair of shoes, cellular is a bike, and fixed cable/fiber is a car. If the system is setup to allow a single car manufacturer to operate in an area then the government needs to step in and ensure the consumer isn't being gouged -- just as they do with water, electric, waste, etc... |
· actions · 2020-Nov-27 6:11 pm · (locked) |
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I agree with the premise that the caps are not the best solution to the problem Comcast is professing to be solving by implementing them, but they should have enforced this policy uniformly to begin with. Not implementing it across the board is a major argument for it not being implemented at all, anywhere.
So... welcome to the party. |
· actions · 2020-Nov-27 8:24 pm · (locked) |
BiggA Premium Member join:2005-11-23 Central CT ARRIS SB6141 Asus RT-AC68
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to lesmikesell
said by lesmikesell:Who do you think should pay for someone's extra use? Do you complain about paying extra for the water when your kid takes a shower? Or the extra electricity they use for the computer in that remote learning session? If the water company just decided to quadruple their rates for no reason other than to deliver "stockholder value", then you would be pretty pissed off. No one is asking for free internet. Comcast can provide 100mbps or faster service with no data caps very profitably at $40/mo without charging extra for data caps or extorting content providers like Netflix for protection money. The issue is a monopoly utility that is not being regulated as what they are: a utility. |
· actions · 2020-Nov-27 9:34 pm · (locked) |
| BiggA |
to lesmikesell
said by lesmikesell:And what I'm saying is that Comcast is going to make a certain profit margin one way or another. Why should the people who do not overload the system pay as much as those that do, for whatever reason? No one is "overloading" the system, at least not users who are using a few TB/mo. Your argument then, is that Comcast should charge some nominal fee, say $20/mo, and then charge for data used. That's not what they are doing. They are charging about double what broadband costs in a competitive market, then they are charging content providers again for protection money so that their bits don't have "accidents", then they are charging customers again to actually use their connection for Unlimited data. So they are effectively charging FOUR TIMES for the same service. However, the $20/mo plus data costs makes no sense for the broadband provider because broadband is basically a fixed cost service. The marginal cost to have more users using 2x or 5x or even 10x the data is almost zero, whereas the fixed cost to have the physical plant there in the first place doing nothing is astronomical. Not $90/mo for broadband astronomical, maybe $50/mo for broadband astromonical. To put it in other words, the first KB or MB that a given user uses in a month costs Comcast some amount, while every GB or TB after that costs orders of magnitude less, effectively zero. There are no congestion problems on most nodes, even in the Northeast now with no data caps, so nodes can be properly managed, they can be run so that all users have plenty of bandwidth available whenever they want it. This is a cash grab to screw their captive customers, plain and simple. |
· actions · 2020-Nov-27 9:40 pm · (locked) |
| BiggA |
to neufuse
said by neufuse:Google meet for example requires 3.2 mbps for outbound call and 6.5mbps for 20 participants that's 4.2GB per hour for class... at their low end it's still 2.2GB per hour for SD video still 440ish GB per month for a single kid Holy @#$%! I'm shocked that Google is running that high of a bitrate. It certainly means much better quality, but the corporate systems where the company has to pay for the bandwidth are usually set up for 1mbps so that an average user typically doesn't use much more than 1GB/day for everything, including video conference, email, intranet, etc. I prefer Skype for the quality, I think it can pull upwards of 2.5mbps in ideal circumstances, Zoom and others are a fraction of that. Not saying that we should have poorer quality video just because of arbitrary and capricious data caps, quite to the contrary, BUT I'm surprised that Google wants to suck up that much bandwidth on the other end. They have a lot of it, but still. |
· actions · 2020-Nov-27 9:47 pm · (locked) |
Eth_Rem Premium Member join:2009-06-17 Littleton, CO ARRIS TG3482 Asus RT-AC68
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to videomatic3
said by videomatic3:But they don't. My parents pay 35 for the 25/3 package Let's say they get unlimited data for an extra 25 a month, thats a total of 60 a month, let's say they decide to max out their internet the entire month for no other reason other than to give comcast the middle finger, they can use a little under 10tb in a month. My aunt and uncle have the 200mbit package for 65 a month and use around 50-200 gb a month. Just because you're using more or less data doesn't mean you're paying more or less for your internet, sign up for a cheaper tier, keep the unlimited data and learn to use qos. There’s not a lot of wiggle room for us. Gigabit is $100 with 42Mbps upload while 600 is $90 with 20Mbps upload. An extra $10 to have enough upstream for everyone is a no-brainer really. They gave me a $10 promo for the year and $30 for unlimited = $120 a month. Roommates don’t charge me for utilities since I pay the Comcast bill so it works out in my favor anyway since the electric bill alone hits $300-$350 in the summer. Would I like to pay less? Absolutely. In fact if it wasn’t for the fact I provide the service for the whole house I would consider replacing it with a T-Mobile Simply Prepaid unlimited plan for $50 or Visible for $25. It’s okay for what it is right now though. They dropped the regular price from $176.95 with unlimited to $130 in our market too this year. Previously it was going to go to $179.95 so I was actually pretty happy with Comcast when my bill ended up going up much less than I expected in July. |
· actions · 2020-Nov-28 12:47 am · (locked) |
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to lesmikesell
Lol, electricity and water are regulated. They have low base fee and reasonable charge for usage using meters inspected and certified for accuracy by state and local county officials.
Cable is unregulated quasi monopoly with high fixed monthly fee + unreasonably high additional charges set over predatory low cap with goal of getting extra $$ from families stuck in pandemic at homes which is disgusting. |
· actions · 2020-Dec-4 2:10 am · (locked) |