Alcatel-Lucent G-240G-A
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to ohreally
Re: [Services] AT&T is discontinuing the ALL DISTANCE calling plan.said by ohreally:said by FlatWorld:With VoIP, you’re putting your eggs in one basket. If someone took out a central switching facility for VoIP, they could disrupt communications on a much larger scale than they can POTS. yes and no - the additional flexibility that comes with VoIP means you could easily build a resilient architecture (providing the IP network is still in place). Even if you lost the entirety of one location, you just send everything to a different site. NFV allows additional capacity to be scaled up and down as needed The issue is likely to be more commercial than technical - you can build resiliency into an IP network, it's a matter of how much you want to spend on doing that. The PSTN was built in a different era where one company dominated the industry (and held a monopoly in most places while it was built). But you're jumping to conclusions here. None of us will know how the network is actually built, and what should have happened vs what actually happened Well in Nashville, they lost all IP connectivity from AT&T. I was simply challenging the assertion that having a POTS line is pointless when there’s VoIP. Case and point, VoIP & cellular are down while surrounding POTS switching facilities are still operational to complete local & emergency calling. |
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until the aging PSTN kit itself fails of course (much of which is made by companies that don't exist anymore and even where support is available, it's quite limited - no one is building new line cards or frames, the people who built it have moved on, retired or died, etc).
You're taking a specific example and generalising it. There is nothing inherent to VoIP or PSTN that makes one more reliable than the other.
Perhaps, if AT&T ever releases a report into what happened (which is possible since the FCC will likely want to know why 911 and FirstNet failed), we'll know a bit more. |
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Alcatel-Lucent G-240G-A
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Well, it’s pretty simple to see that PSTN is inherently more reliable than IP traffic.
PSTN relies on a ton of switching equipment that serve a smaller geographic area with safeguards like ESA. VoIP can’t do that on a local level as it stands.
VoIP relies on the internet, which doesn’t have localized termination like PSTN does.
While the system itself is aging, my point is that it is built with more redundancy than IP traffic.
Maybe it’s time that we start rethinking how IP traffic is routed. |
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VoIP can use the internet, but it doesn't have to. Some telcos don't let it go near the internet, though it may share some of the same infrastructure (different MPLS VPNs etc)
Nothing stopping someone from putting OLTs and routers and VoIP softswitches in every central office and doing routing at such a local level, though again it goes back to the cost argument |
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to ohreally
Reliability and Survivability are consequences of the infrastructure, not necessarily the technology - I agree with that to a point. Meanwhile, I can use barbed wire and the earth to have POTS service. I cannot easily accomplish that with VoIP. |
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| Poorfellow |
to ohreally
Verizon is going that route in DMS offices where copper isn't yet being retired. CS2000 SSW and they maintain the DMS's equivalent of the switching modules. |
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 maartenaElmo
Premium Member
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA |
to FlatWorld
said by FlatWorld:Well, it’s pretty simple to see that PSTN is inherently more reliable than IP traffic.
PSTN relies on a ton of switching equipment that serve a smaller geographic area with safeguards like ESA. VoIP can’t do that on a local level as it stands. Perhaps, but it is cost-prohibitive. Most people I know have cancelled their land lines long ago, and with fewer and fewer people wanting a pots land line, it becomes financially much harder to keep maintaining the equipment.... switching equipment is maybe serving a 1000 homes, but if only 100 homes actually still use it, the cost of maintaining it becomes unbearable, which is why pots phone lines (unless mandated by the state) are getting extremely expensive. And most POTS system may have switching equipment for the first "hop" but at some point it gets all translated to IP traffic. Unless you are only placing calls within your own city, chances are that your phone call will be completely IP based in less than 5 miles from your home. It's time for POTS phone lines to go where FAX machines should have gone two decades ago. To the void of obsoleteness. |
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 ·T-Mobile
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said by maartena:Perhaps, but it is cost-prohibitive. Plus the PSTN is breaking down everywhere, telco's cannot get replacement cards for ESS switches, which in turn shuts down local and interoffice switching. The so called "reliable PSTN" is a total myth believed and proffered by people living in the past, while understanding little of reality, it's days are over, circuit switched is sliding into the sunset, packet switched is the future. Sadly some communications dinosaurs want to cling onto the past and like their ancient brethren, will sink into the tar-pits of history, along with those light blue and ugly brown switches. |
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maartenaElmo
Premium Member
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA |
maartena
Premium Member
2021-Feb-8 6:38 pm
said by Well Bonded:Sadly some communications dinosaurs want to cling onto the past and like their ancient brethren, will sink into the tar-pits of history, along with those light blue and ugly brown switches. The people clinging on to POTS are likely the same that still own a VCR. And possibly a FAX machine and a rotary phone. |
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Alcatel-Lucent G-240G-A
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said by maartena:said by Well Bonded:Sadly some communications dinosaurs want to cling onto the past and like their ancient brethren, will sink into the tar-pits of history, along with those light blue and ugly brown switches. The people clinging on to POTS are likely the same that still own a VCR. And possibly a FAX machine and a rotary phone. Or they live in areas with constant severe weather like tornadoes and just want a reliable phone that hasn’t failed them yet. |
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your moderator at work
hidden : Personal attacks
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·T-Mobile
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to FlatWorld
Re: [Services] AT&T is discontinuing the ALL DISTANCE calling plan.said by FlatWorld:Or they live in areas with constant severe weather like tornadoes and just want a reliable phone that hasn’t failed them yet. I'm going to try to be real polite, you do not seem to understand POTS and VOiP in the telco world and or the CATV world is a service delivered over a physical cable, that cable is subject to storm damag,e regardless of the technology it is delivering. A tornado or any other storm can take it out of service. Is it possible for you to understand that? |
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2 edits |
Edit: no point, added to ignore list. |
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FlatWorld
1 edit |
to Well Bonded
Edit: nvm |
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wierdo
join:2001-02-16
Miami, FL |
to Well Bonded
said by Well Bonded:said by FlatWorld:Or they live in areas with constant severe weather like tornadoes and just want a reliable phone that hasn’t failed them yet. I'm going to try to be real polite, you do not seem to understand POTS and VOiP in the telco world and or the CATV world is a service delivered over a physical cable, that cable is subject to storm damag,e regardless of the technology it is delivering. A tornado or any other storm can take it out of service. Is it possible for you to understand that? There do exist places where phone and power don't share right of way or phone is underground but power is up on poles. That's still not the point people who like POTS are making, though, which is that it's line powered. Even when they are both overhead, I've personally witnessed situations where in a downed line situation the electric power quit because the fuses blew but the insulated phone cable worked fine laying on the ground. Or in another instance a pole went down, power phases shorted, but the attachment for the x,000 pair phone cable failed and it held itself up. Not particularly likely, but it does happen. That said, POTS isn't literally the only line powered voice technology. Cable companies used to offer line powered phone service, though all the installations I've personally seen have been converted since. Tulsa is littered with old Cox boxes they no longer use. |
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Alcatel-Lucent G-240G-A
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said by wierdo:said by Well Bonded:said by FlatWorld:Or they live in areas with constant severe weather like tornadoes and just want a reliable phone that hasn’t failed them yet. I'm going to try to be real polite, you do not seem to understand POTS and VOiP in the telco world and or the CATV world is a service delivered over a physical cable, that cable is subject to storm damag,e regardless of the technology it is delivering. A tornado or any other storm can take it out of service. Is it possible for you to understand that? There do exist places where phone and power don't share right of way or phone is underground but power is up on poles. That's still not the point people who like POTS are making, though, which is that it's line powered. Even when they are both overhead, I've personally witnessed situations where in a downed line situation the electric power quit because the fuses blew but the insulated phone cable worked fine laying on the ground. Or in another instance a pole went down, power phases shorted, but the attachment for the x,000 pair phone cable failed and it held itself up. Not particularly likely, but it does happen. That said, POTS isn't literally the only line powered voice technology. Cable companies used to offer line powered phone service, though all the installations I've personally seen have been converted since. Tulsa is littered with old Cox boxes they no longer use. Our fiber is totally below ground to the CO, and it stayed up after a direct hit to our neighborhood by an EF2 last year.. Our cell phones stopped worked. The reasons for keeping pots are slowly fading away, but there are still some advantages in certain situations. As it stands now, I could still dial 911 and call to check on family within my exchange if the DMS isolated itself. That being said, my AT&T fiber and POTS will be canceled as soon as C-Spire finished. laying their underground fiber in a few months. |
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·T-Mobile
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to FlatWorld
said by FlatWorld:Or they live in areas with constant severe weather like tornadoes and just want a reliable phone that hasn’t failed them yet. Sure like this POTS is working anymore. 
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| Well Bonded |
to wierdo
said by wierdo:There do exist places where phone and power don't share right of way or phone is underground but power is up on poles. That's still not the point people who like POTS are making, though, which is that it's line powered. Only if CO connected, with an RT after 3 to 4 hours no more service. Even when they are both overhead, I've personally witnessed situations where in a downed line situation the electric power quit because the fuses blew but the insulated phone cable worked fine laying on the ground. And I have witnessed concrete poles snapped like toothpicks leaving everything, copper, fiber, CATV, on the ground to be run over by traffic. 
Or in another instance a pole went down, power phases shorted, but the attachment for the x,000 pair phone cable failed and it held itself up. Not particularly likely, but it does happen. Likewise I have seen power burn down a good half mile of F2 cable feeding a E911 transmitter site. 
And buried is no guarantee the service will remain working either. 
Bottom line if it can take out VoIP it can take out POTS simply because of the method of delivery, copper pairs, now wireless is a different world.
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bbear2
Premium Member
join:2003-10-06
94045 |
to Well Bonded
We don't got no stinking aging infrastructure... next? |
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·T-Mobile
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said by bbear2:We don't got no stinking aging infrastructure... next? Whatever that is supposed to mean? |
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(Software) pfSense
Ubiquiti U6-LR
Ubiquiti UAP-AC-HD
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to FlatWorld
said by FlatWorld:Our fiber is totally below ground to the CO, and it stayed up after a direct hit to our neighborhood by an EF2 last year.. Our cell phones stopped worked.
The reasons for keeping pots are slowly fading away, but there are still some advantages in certain situations. As it stands now, I could still dial 911 and call to check on family within my exchange if the DMS isolated itself.
That being said, my AT&T fiber and POTS will be canceled as soon as C-Spire finished. laying their underground fiber in a few months. I take care of a small nonprofit community radio station office, and will be canceling the AT&T VDSL internet service there as soon as Metronet gets their fiber laid. It's supposed to be ready in a few months since it's in the same construction zone where their hub hut is for that area. We already moved our POTS lines over to Cincinnati Bell last year for cost savings. I'm not sure what kind of backup power is available on that POTS service, although it is fed from the CO and not a remote. |
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 mt999999
join:2016-06-16
East Liverpool, OH |
to maartena
said by maartena:said by FlatWorld:Well, it’s pretty simple to see that PSTN is inherently more reliable than IP traffic.
PSTN relies on a ton of switching equipment that serve a smaller geographic area with safeguards like ESA. VoIP can’t do that on a local level as it stands. Perhaps, but it is cost-prohibitive. Most people I know have cancelled their land lines long ago, and with fewer and fewer people wanting a pots land line, it becomes financially much harder to keep maintaining the equipment.... switching equipment is maybe serving a 1000 homes, but if only 100 homes actually still use it, the cost of maintaining it becomes unbearable, which is why pots phone lines (unless mandated by the state) are getting extremely expensive. And most POTS system may have switching equipment for the first "hop" but at some point it gets all translated to IP traffic. Unless you are only placing calls within your own city, chances are that your phone call will be completely IP based in less than 5 miles from your home. It's time for POTS phone lines to go where FAX machines should have gone two decades ago. To the void of obsoleteness. My local calling area is at least 12 miles, that's standard. At minimum, it can be an "all copper" call within the local exchange (~25k people). Local calls also extend to neighboring Ohio cities within my county, and to a few small WV and PA communities (Frontier for WV, not sure about PA - Verizon?). I'd assume all local calls are copper. Once you get to regional calls, likely IP. Long distance is guaranteed IP no matter the carrier. Speak for yourself, I much prefer my POTS line. |
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| mt999999 |
to maartena
said by maartena:said by Well Bonded:Sadly some communications dinosaurs want to cling onto the past and like their ancient brethren, will sink into the tar-pits of history, along with those light blue and ugly brown switches. The people clinging on to POTS are likely the same that still own a VCR. And possibly a FAX machine and a rotary phone. OK now you're getting personal... haha My internet has been out for days, but my VCR and Disney tapes from my childhood have yet to fail me, watching them with my 6 year old daughter. My POTS line still works despite the 3 day internet outage, and the ETA of repair isn't until the 23rd at 5pm. No phone with VOIP. Yes, I have a rotary phone on my kitchen wall. That is from the 70's, and it has yet to fail me as well. |
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 ·Charter
 ·AT&T FTTP
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to FlatWorld
said by FlatWorld:Case and point, VoIP & cellular are down while surrounding POTS switching facilities are still operational to complete local & emergency calling. What I'm curious about is in theory since AT&T's wireless network was unable to complete the 911 call why didn't people's cellphones complete the call using Verizon or T-Mobile/Sprint's networks? You're supposed to be able to complete a 911 call on any wireless carrier's network and even complete 911 calls on phones that aren't currently active as long as they can connect to the network. |
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Obihai OBi202
Ubiquiti EdgeRouter X
ARRIS BGW210-700
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jhclce
Member
2021-Mar-31 4:12 pm
said by Cbusdude:said by FlatWorld:Case and point, VoIP & cellular are down while surrounding POTS switching facilities are still operational to complete local & emergency calling. What I'm curious about is in theory since AT&T's wireless network was unable to complete the 911 call why didn't people's cellphones complete the call using Verizon or T-Mobile/Sprint's networks? You're supposed to be able to complete a 911 call on any wireless carrier's network and even complete 911 calls on phones that aren't currently active as long as they can connect to the network. It depends on where the failure occurred. If a base station is still broadcasting a signal and advertising voice services but has lost connectivity to the phone network, phones will still attempt to use it for 911 calls. There is no mechanism to retry 911 calls on another network if one fails. |
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