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to lawsoncl
Re: Automotive design improvements, preferences, Dislikes.said by lawsoncl:I've met plenty of old farts (at least older than me) that swear by old school carbs and points instead of them thar new-fangled electronics. Modern fuel injection and electronic ignition were tremendous improvements, even if they do add a bunch of complexity.
The trend to can-bus controlled everything has been a mixed blessing. While it simplifies the wiring (data, power and ground to run all the lights, for example), it adds it's own complexities. This comes up with motorcycles a lot. I think you can still buy street bikes with carbs, I know you can still buy trail bikes with carbs. I had my Valkyrie dyno'd and the guy running the machine was baffled by a bike with 6 carbs on it.BTW a Valkyrie is a flat 6 1500 CC, 6 carb'ed bike. He just said, how do you keep this all running with a 20 year old bike. I didn't say anything but thought about it for a while. I guess I'm just use to carbs. I can rebuild a carb in my sleep, rejet carbs, set the A/F mix, syn carbs etc. etc. I just don't really think about it. Rebuilt my neighbor's lawn tractor carb in like 10 minutes flat when he had a problem. I have to say carbs are more an art then a science. To get carbs dialed in takes some skill and it will vary depending on conditions, temp, elevation etc. Electronic stuff basically works or doesn't. Upsides to either way you do it. Fuel injection systems can go bad, they're more expensive to fix and you need a good scanner usually to figure out what is wrong. |
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fixrman
Premium Member
join:2003-02-10
Hatboro, PA  ·Verizon FiOS
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fixrman
Premium Member
2021-May-24 8:42 am
Hey, buddy - I know that you mentioned carburettors, but this is an automotive thread.  Sorry, but I have to take issue with your "carb rebuild" statement. How long did it take to get the carburettor off?  I have to say carbs are more an art then a science. To get carbs dialed in takes some skill and it will vary depending on conditions, temp, elevation etc. Electronic stuff basically works or doesn't. Upsides to either way you do it. Fuel injection systems can go bad, they're more expensive to fix and you need a good scanner usually to figure out what is wrong. Carbs are more science that art; carbs operate on the Bernoulli principle and the Venturi effect - all science. The "art part" comes in the adjustment of the carburettor, but even that is science-based. The mistake most people make with carburettors is failing to ensure that the ignition system is perfect before adjusting the carb. Point-style ignitions systems, including timing, should always have been in perfect adjustment first before attempting to adjust the carb. Doing it the other way first guaranteed poor results. Carbs failed just as often as EFI systems, probably even more so. Who never had an issue with a vacuum pull-off, thermostatic choke (bi-metal or electric), or the sundry weird vacuum devices and **miles of vacuum lines to effect "control" of the carb or sensors that were part of the system? Give me a Port Fuel Injected vehicle any day over a carburettor; carbs were wasteful, allowing much of the fuel to end up going right out the tailpipe, whereas the PFI vehicle - or even the old mechanical systems - would allow for stoichiometric control of fuel, but with all the fuel enrichment necessary for power. All while still burning with acceptable emissions levels. **One of my pet peeves from back in the day; the miles of vacuum lines that required an under hood label; God help you if you didn't have a good technical library with Mitchell manuals or that Vacuum Routing Diagram was obscured.  |
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Corehhi
Member
2021-May-25 10:35 pm
said by fixrman:Hey, buddy - I know that you mentioned carburettors, but this is an automotive thread.
Sorry, but I have to take issue with your "carb rebuild" statement. How long did it take to get the carburettor off? **One of my pet peeves from back in the day; the miles of vacuum lines that required an under hood label; God help you if you didn't have a good technical library with Mitchell manuals or that Vacuum Routing Diagram was obscured. I haven't seen a carbed car or truck in decades. Brought up motorcycles because carbs still exist on those. Last carbed car I owned was a 1985 two barrel Ford Escort with optional quick throw shifter. Actually wasn't a bad car. Crabs in most cases don't take much to get off and on. I don't what ones you have fooled with that took a lot of effort to take off? I do hate vacuum lines, yes those suck. One gets a leak and finding it can be a PIA or you don't realize that is the problem. |
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fixrman
Premium Member
join:2003-02-10
Hatboro, PA ·Verizon FiOS
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fixrman
Premium Member
2021-May-26 7:07 am
said by Corehhi:Last carbed car I owned was a 1985 two barrel Ford Escort with optional quick throw shifter. Actually wasn't a bad car. Ahh, the World Car® I had an '87 Pony with no A/C, 3 speed with overdrive, EFI (TBI). Great 30+ MPG car, only problems: the 40K timing belt and the rear strut tower rot. 101,000 miles for a $3500.00 car - not shabby. ++ [Crabs] in most cases don't take much to get off and on. I don't what ones you have fooled with that took a lot of effort to take off? ++ I'm not talking effort, I'm talking time. Let's see: an '86 Olds Cutlass Ciera, 3.0L (181 C.I.D.) would have been tedious. Lots of vacuum lines. Hondas generally had many, many vacuum lines going to and surrounding their Keihin 3 BBL carburettors. ++ I do hate vacuum lines, yes those suck. One gets a leak and finding it can be a PIA or you don't realize that is the problem. ++ On those vehicles that had many of them running right next to each other in a bundle or harness, it was a real PIA to find the offending line. Of course, Technician "A" also might have connected them incorrectly, which could cause all sorts of interesting driveability concerns. |
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Now they put covers on the engines. You can hardly see them anymore. |
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fixrman
Premium Member
join:2003-02-10
Hatboro, PA ·Verizon FiOS
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fixrman
Premium Member
2021-May-26 7:19 am
So here's a blast from the past that I am not sure Cho Baka remembers: EFE (Early Fuel Evaporation) heater grids. They could be part of or separate from the carb base gasket(s) - and starting at about $38.00 (way more now), could ratchet up the price of a carb rebuild, because they were almost always burned out.
More than a few guys omitted them, and it was a huge mistake.
Who knows - without looking it up (honour system here) - what they were for?
The only guy I am sure who knows about them for sure is MattMag, who I haven't seen around in a while. |
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| fixrman |
to Bobcat00
There aren't than many vacuum lines any more, because most things are done electronically. |
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to fixrman
said by fixrman:So here's a blast from the past that I am not sure Cho Baka remembers: EFE (Early Fuel Evaporation) heater grids. I had successfully forgotten about those till now. Thanks tons.  Variable venturi carbs were my headache. |
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 dennismurphyPut me on hold? I'll put YOU on hold
Premium Member
join:2002-11-19
Parsippany, NJ |
to fixrman
said by fixrman:So here's a blast from the past that I am not sure Cho Baka remembers: EFE (Early Fuel Evaporation) heater grids. They could be part of or separate from the carb base gasket(s) - and starting at about $38.00 (way more now), could ratchet up the price of a carb rebuild, because they were almost always burned out.
More than a few guys omitted them, and it was a huge mistake.
Who knows - without looking it up (honour system here) - what they were for?
The only guy I am sure who knows about them for sure is MattMag, who I haven't seen around in a while. Having missed the EFE's - I went straight from the 2-bbl carb in my Monte Carlo to the wonders of throttle-body injection sitting on an Iron Duke. Basically, a drippy egg where the damn carb should've been. I hated that stupid piece of junk. |
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fixrman
Premium Member
join:2003-02-10
Hatboro, PA ·Verizon FiOS
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to Cho Baka
said by Cho Baka:Variable venturi carbs were my headache. Ford's, too. |
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| fixrman |
to dennismurphy
EFI was excellent. Fuel stingy and made lots of power when you wanted it; very torquey.
I had a "drippy egg" in the Escort, but only because the injector was bad. One warranty replacement later at 36,000 miles and it was golden until I donated it.
That TBI system was way better than that silly E2ME (if it was a CCC car) ever could have been. |
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dennismurphyPut me on hold? I'll put YOU on hold
Premium Member
join:2002-11-19
Parsippany, NJ |
said by fixrman:EFI was excellent. Fuel stingy and made lots of power when you wanted it; very torquey.
I had a "drippy egg" in the Escort, but only because the injector was bad. One warranty replacement later at 36,000 miles and it was golden until I donated it.
That TBI system was way better than that silly E2ME (if it was a CCC car) ever could have been. “Torquey” and “lots of power” aren’t the words that come to mind with an Iron Duke. LOL I agree that the 3C cars were a bad idea. The TBI made more sense but I had so many damn problems with mine. It would - essentially - vapor lock. I know, I know - it’s not really vapor lock. But it would drip and leak enough that if you tried a hot restart inside about 10 minutes, it’d sputter and choke itself out and then be dead as a door nail for about a half hour. I got really good at feathering the throttle on the hot restart to get the bowl cleared and running normally. Poor college kid’s gotta do what a kid’s gotta do.  |
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fixrman
Premium Member
join:2003-02-10
Hatboro, PA |
fixrman
Premium Member
2021-May-26 10:34 pm
They used it on pick 'm up trucks to great effect. Meant to add that. |
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dennismurphyPut me on hold? I'll put YOU on hold
Premium Member
join:2002-11-19
Parsippany, NJ |
said by fixrman:They used it on pick 'm up trucks to great effect. Meant to add that. True enough. It probably didn’t help that mine had almost 175,000 tired miles on it. |
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fixrman
Premium Member
join:2003-02-10
Hatboro, PA |
fixrman
Premium Member
2021-May-26 10:51 pm
Didn't owe you much though, did it? |
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dennismurphyPut me on hold? I'll put YOU on hold
Premium Member
join:2002-11-19
Parsippany, NJ |
said by fixrman:Didn't owe you much though, did it? That car had all sorts of issues. Electrical problems, body issues, a failed PS rack and serious hesitation problems - couldn’t climb very steep hills, for instance. It was high mileage by the time I was done with it, yes, but was a diagnostic mess. Had it in to the mechanic several times trying to fix the hesitation and “vapor lock” issues and never could get it right. These days I understand much better what was wrong with it and why, but the WWW hadn’t been invented yet when I was driving that thing. |
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fixrman
Premium Member
join:2003-02-10
Hatboro, PA ·Verizon FiOS
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fixrman
Premium Member
2021-May-27 9:47 am
said by dennismurphy:was a diagnostic mess. Had it in to the mechanic several times trying to fix the hesitation and “vapor lock” issues and never could get it right. That was common well into the 90s, I'd suspect. Guys thought they could just ease into repair of those systems, but unless a person is logical, analytical and has a really good grasp of electronics, they'll never get it. Most guys were too lazy or just generically disinterested to learn any of the new stuff, preferring to call it "junk", but it was only "junk" because they didn't understand it. Many guys decried disc brakes early on, too. I'd suspect that due to the leaking injector, your catalyst was clogged, which would explain why it had no ass going up hills. The PS rack needed new spool o=rings, which is why it had morning sickness or general lack of assist. In the end it didn't really matter, because as a college kid you probably didn't have the money really to throw at the problem, and it sounds like your garage guy wasn't exactly the right one to fix it anyway. I think there was a special policy on those racks for 6/60, and depending on the year, the catalyst was 8/80; unfortunately, much-maligned dealers are the only ones who are required by law to repair automobiles under Policy, but independents have no obligation to inform of the existence of warranty remedies. |
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