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to jpaik
Re: Prep for CoronavirusYou mean like these ratios that show the rate of vaccinated people getting Omicron is higher than the rate of unvaccinated people getting Omicron in Jan.? Keep in mind that the rate per 100,000 population in this graph has to be the relative to the specific (vaccinated or unvaccinated) population and not the total population. It can't be the total population as the previous graph I posted shows the ratio of vaccinated cases vs unvaccinated cases on Jan 1 as almost 6:1 (15,435 vaccinated + partially vaccinated vs 2,679 unvaccinated) and (eyeballing) it keeps at around a 6:1 ratio for most of the entire 30 days. The rate graph here only shows that vaccinated + partially is barely double the rate of unvaccinated. |
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 MarkI stand with my feet
join:2009-07-11
Canada |
Mark
Member
2022-Jan-14 5:29 pm
True, but the covidians/covidiots have their point, it is the unvaccinated getting sick enough to require medical attention at rates that exceed the vaccinated. |
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jpaik
join:2002-01-09
Hamilton, ON |
to EnricoP
Please look again at the data viz I posted. Cases per million inhabitants per day. The Ontario Science Table derives the visualizations from Ontario public health datasets. Regarding the chart you're referencing, I think you're missing a fundamental concept: the importance of context. Maybe these will help? (I posted them a few days ago). |
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 AppleGuy
Premium Member
join:2013-09-08
Kitchener, ON ·Bell Fibe Internet
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AppleGuy
Premium Member
2022-Jan-14 7:35 pm
said by jpaik:Regarding the chart you're referencing, I think you're missing a fundamental concept: the importance of context. Maybe these will help? (I posted them a few days ago). You did, and I pointed out that they were not remotely accurate. And it’s a problem when people show charts that are disingenuous. No one is arguing that the vaccinated are less likely to end up in the hospital (about 1/2 as likely) and less likely to end up in the ICU (about 1/6 as likely). But fake and false charts showing that vaccinated are 1/20 to end up in the hospital, as yours does, is an outright lie, and give fodder to people who believe politicians, those in public health, and the pharmaceuticals are just out ruin peoples lives. You’re part of the problem by giving them ammunition, and it needs to stop. |
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to jpaik
Nice pictures but they don't reflect the actual situation that is happening.
I will try and make this more simple for you. My first graph shows that vaccinated people are getting Omicron at 5-6 times the rate as unvaccinated (let's use 9000 vaccinated cases per day and 1500 unvaccinated cases per day as an estimate of the averages shown in the graph).
Ah, but there are more vaccinated people you say. Yes, that is correct. But if the total vaccinated population is around 80% and the unvaccinated is 20% (don't forget to include all those kids under 5 that are all not vaccinated!), then there are 4 times as many vaccinated people as unvaccinated.
But 5-6 times is greater than 4 times. So vaccinated people are getting Omicron at a higher rate than unvaccinated. They actual have a term for this - negative efficacy. It means that the vaccines are not doing a good job at preventing Omicron.
Hence, my statement that with Omicron this is a pandemic of the vaccinated.
If we can agree on this, then later on I will dive into why the numbers of vaccinated vs unvaccinated hospitalized and ICU are also not as they seem on the surface with Omicron. Hint: it has to do with how many people who got Delta last year are still in the hospital. |
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MarkI stand with my feet
join:2009-07-11
Canada |
to AppleGuy
Meanwhile the CDC says it observed a 30% increase in youth suicide attempts and interventions post-covid, but irrespective...you've got to have been hatched out of an egg as a full grown adult, utterly unloved, to suggest this has not been unhealthy for children. Plus, the full accounting is going to be longer than 15 months, and the toll is yet to be determined...god help us all if austerity ever becomes a thing. |
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to EnricoP
» twitter.com/CDCDirector/ ··· 43856387From CDC director, Zero Omicron patients needed ventilation, and yet Ontario has nearly 300 on vents? |
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AppleGuy
Premium Member
join:2013-09-08
Kitchener, ON ·Bell Fibe Internet
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to EnricoP
said by EnricoP:They actual have a term for this - negative efficacy. It means that the vaccines are not doing a good job at preventing Omicron. OK, so I actually did read an article regarding efficacy, regarding different vaccination statuses, natural immunity due to infection, and all sorts of combinations of the above. Each efficacy had a range. The only time there was negative efficacy was for those with 2 doses of the vaccination, -6%. And we see that when the infection 'rate per million' is quite often highest with those with 2 shots only. My thinking is that there are several factors as to why this is, and to be clear, an opinion. 1) Vaccinated folks might have more co-morbid's, plus old age for some (over 80). 2) Vaccinated folks are through more caution in the wind, and generally being more careless, even if not intentional. 3) Vaccinated folks are (or were) allowed to more higher-risk events, such as sporting events, where people are often maskless. 4) Unvaccinated folks are much more likely to have already contracted Covid, and therefore, have more/better immunity against the current variant. 5) Unvaccinated (but eligible) folks tend to be younger (millennials). |
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6) vaccines need to be updated. |
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dks01
join:2016-12-29
Owen Sound, ON |
to EnricoP
said by EnricoP:If we can agree on this, then later on I will dive into why the numbers of vaccinated vs unvaccinated hospitalized and ICU are also not as they seem on the surface with Omicron. Hint: it has to do with how many people who got Delta last year are still in the hospital. And given that identifiable patient data like that is protected under the privacy laws, you are simply speculating because you can't track exactly who has been discharged and who has been admitted. Other than by a singular leap of logic. |
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said by dks01:said by EnricoP:If we can agree on this, then later on I will dive into why the numbers of vaccinated vs unvaccinated hospitalized and ICU are also not as they seem on the surface with Omicron. Hint: it has to do with how many people who got Delta last year are still in the hospital. And given that identifiable patient data like that is protected under the privacy laws, you are simply speculating because you can't track exactly who has been discharged and who has been admitted. Other than by a singular leap of logic. So we have no idea whos in the ICU with what variant ? |
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Its been a few days and I haven't see any responses challenging the data that with Omicron it is now a pandemic of the vaccinated. Good to see that we can all agree on that.  Now that is settled, I hope everyone can appreciate the humor in this video: » babylonbee.com/video/144 |
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said by EnricoP:Its been a few days and I haven't see any responses challenging the data that with Omicron it is now a pandemic of the vaccinated. Speak for yourself.   ----- Illinois Hospitals ‘Completely Overwhelmed’ By Unvaccinated COVID-19 Patients, Officials Say
More than 90 percent of people in intensive care units with COVID are unvaccinated and nearly 100 percent of those needing ventilators haven't gotten their shots, health officials said. January 3, 2022 » blockclubchicago.org/202 ··· als-say/COVID-19 hospitalizations look different in the Omicron wave, and vaccination status is playing a part
In early December, emergency room staff at Bluewater Health in Sarnia, Ontario, began seeing a troubling change in patients coming to the hospital with serious COVID-19 symptoms. Unlike during earlier waves, multiple people were showing up at once. Sometimes entire families came in, all sick, likely with the newly identified Omicron variant of the virus.
Now, the hospital’s intensive-care unit is at capacity, with 70 per cent of patients there as a result of COVID-19 infections. About 90 per cent of the COVID-19 patients in the ICU are unvaccinated, chief of staff Michel Haddad said in an interview this week. Among the hospital’s entire population of COVID-19 patients, both inside and outside the ICU, two-thirds are unvaccinated. January 8, 2022 » www.theglobeandmail.com/ ··· cinated/ |
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said by PX Eliezer:said by EnricoP:Its been a few days and I haven't see any responses challenging the data that with Omicron it is now a pandemic of the vaccinated. Speak for yourself. ----- Illinois Hospitals ‘Completely Overwhelmed’ By Unvaccinated COVID-19 Patients, Officials Say
More than 90 percent of people in intensive care units with COVID are unvaccinated and nearly 100 percent of those needing ventilators haven't gotten their shots, health officials said. January 3, 2022 » blockclubchicago.org/202 ··· als-say/ Weird can't seem to find stats about vaccinated vs unvaccinated » dph.illinois.gov/covid19 ··· ics.html |
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said by lowping:Weird can't seem to find stats about vaccinated vs unvaccinated January 14, 2022
Illinois Department of Public Health
As of last night, 7,320 individuals in Illinois were reported to be in the hospital with COVID-19. Of those, 1,148 patients were in the ICU and 657 patients with COVID-19 were on ventilators. Updated data analysis shows almost 90% of COVID-19 hospitalizations in Illinois are unvaccinated. » dph.illinois.gov/resourc ··· iru.html |
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lowping
Member
2022-Jan-17 10:15 pm
said by PX Eliezer:said by lowping:Weird can't seem to find stats about vaccinated vs unvaccinated January 14, 2022
Illinois Department of Public Health
As of last night, 7,320 individuals in Illinois were reported to be in the hospital with COVID-19. Of those, 1,148 patients were in the ICU and 657 patients with COVID-19 were on ventilators. Updated data analysis shows almost 90% of COVID-19 hospitalizations in Illinois are unvaccinated. » dph.illinois.gov/resourc ··· iru.html But where can I see those numbers ? They just say 90% without showing the data ? |
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jpaik
join:2002-01-09
Hamilton, ON |
jpaik
Member
2022-Jan-17 10:18 pm
said by lowping:But where can I see those numbers ? They just stay 90% without showing the data ? Are you disputing the data analysis? You might want to contact the Illinois Department of Public Health with your concerns. |
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lowping
Member
2022-Jan-17 10:21 pm
said by jpaik:said by lowping:But where can I see those numbers ? They just stay 90% without showing the data ? Are you disputing the data analysis? You might want to contact the Illinois Department of Public Health with your concerns. Huh ? I just wanted to see the stats, what's your probleme ? |
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said by lowping:Huh ? I just wanted to see the stats, what's your problem ? You seem to be a true child of the Internet age, where every single datum must be made fully public upon your demand, in nano-speed and in excruciating nano-detail. If it bugs you so much, file a FOIA request with Illinois, though I think they are busy enough trying to keep people alive that you shouldn't hold your breath. Bye to you. |
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jpaik
join:2002-01-09
Hamilton, ON |
to lowping
No problem.
But lately it's unclear if someone is genuinely interested in the data which underpins published summaries (like the one from Illinois). Or they have a misinformed viewpoint: "Omicron is the pandemic of the vaccinated!" |
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to PX Eliezer
said by PX Eliezer:said by lowping:Huh ? I just wanted to see the stats, what's your problem ? You seem to be a true child of the Internet age, where every single datum must be made fully public upon your demand, in nano-speed and in excruciating nano-detail. If it bugs you so much, file a FOIA request with Illinois, though I think they are busy enough trying to keep people alive that you shouldn't hold your breath. Bye to you. Jesus christ over reaction much ? I was just asking where the data was being pulled from and if I could see it myself, nothing more nothing less. A really nice community we're building here Canadian Chat... |
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MarkI stand with my feet
join:2009-07-11
Canada |
Mark
Member
2022-Jan-17 10:44 pm
said by lowping:A really nice community we're building here Canadian Chat... The triple vaxxed are a bunch of miserable sods, maybe their 4th doses will chipper them up some. |
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LastDon
Member
2022-Jan-17 10:50 pm
said by Mark:said by lowping:A really nice community we're building here Canadian Chat... The triple vaxxed are a bunch of miserable sods, maybe their 4th doses will chipper them up some. Oh no.. two of your fave sources.. a so called inventor... and a so called doctor bereson are going at it lol quote:
“Alex Berenson goes on Fox News and directly calls me a liar to my face and says I didn’t invent RNA vaccines,” he wrote. “Unprofessional, rude and an a**hole to boot. But beyond that, I think we can all assume CONTROLLED OPPOSITION.”
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to PX Eliezer
said by PX Eliezer:said by EnricoP:Its been a few days and I haven't see any responses challenging the data that with Omicron it is now a pandemic of the vaccinated. Speak for yourself. quote:
Illinois Hospitals ‘Completely Overwhelmed’ By Unvaccinated COVID-19 Patients, Officials Say
... Illinois is only 61% vaccinated. Here in Ontario around 90% of adults have between 1 - 3 vaccinations. |
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taraf
join:2011-05-07
Ottawa, ON |
taraf
Member
2022-Jan-18 8:13 am
said by urbanriot:said by PX Eliezer:said by EnricoP:Its been a few days and I haven't see any responses challenging the data that with Omicron it is now a pandemic of the vaccinated. Speak for yourself. quote:
Illinois Hospitals ‘Completely Overwhelmed’ By Unvaccinated COVID-19 Patients, Officials Say
... Illinois is only 61% vaccinated. Here in Ontario around 90% of adults have between 1 - 3 vaccinations. Yes. And for now at least we're doing ok. Not great - they're cancelling surgeries that can be delayed because of capacity issues, but not as bad as it could be. That's a pretty strong case for vaccination. |
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to PX Eliezer
I believe I was clear with what I meant by with Omicron it is now a pandemic of the vaccinated but I will try and simplify.
Based on the Ontario January data, it is clear that you have a higher probability of being infected if you are vaccinated (full + partial). Hence, a pandemic of the vaccinated. This is a key point that not everyone is aware of due to the mis-information being spread. It also changes the narrative about vaccine passports preventing the spread. As the vaccinated are catching and spreading COVID at a higher rate than the unvaccinated, the sole purpose of the vaccine passports are to punish the unvaccinated - not to prevent them from infecting other people. |
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NCRGuy
join:2008-03-03
Ottawa, ON |
NCRGuy
Member
2022-Jan-18 12:12 pm
said by EnricoP:I believe I was clear with what I meant by with Omicron it is now a pandemic of the vaccinated but I will try and simplify.
Based on the Ontario January data, it is clear that you have a higher probability of being infected if you are vaccinated (full + partial). Hence, a pandemic of the vaccinated. This is a key point that not everyone is aware of due to the mis-information being spread. It also changes the narrative about vaccine passports preventing the spread. As the vaccinated are catching and spreading COVID at a higher rate than the unvaccinated, the sole purpose of the vaccine passports are to punish the unvaccinated - not to prevent them from infecting other people. That is not at all what the data is showing. Until they start breaking down the fully vaccinated numbers between two shots and three, it is impossible to properly assess. The infection rate also can’t be examined properly without consideration for the significant difference in hospitalization, ICU, and death rates. So when the vaccinated continue to proportionally suffer more severe consequences of infection — no, it is not a pandemic of the vaccinated. |
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EnricoP
Member
2022-Jan-18 12:35 pm
The data (science) is clear that vaccinated people are getting infected at a higher rate than unvaccinated. Full stop. Go look at the Ontario government numbers again. Unless of course you are implying that the government numbers are not correct. Now who is bringing up conspiricy theories... Even moving the goalposts to say that someone is not vaccinated until they have the third booster shot does not change the fact that the vaccine is not effective vs Omicron. Heck, even a fourth shot is not effective at stopping Omicron. » www.cnn.com/2022/01/17/h ··· dex.htmlI understand that people on both sides are invested in their current narrative but the only way to get past this and move forward on both sides is to follow the data and not emotions. Hopefully getting people to understand that this is a pandemic of the vaccinated will help change the perception that the unvaccinated are responsible for the continued spread of the virus. |
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said by EnricoP:The data (science) is clear that vaccinated people are getting infected at a higher rate than unvaccinated. Full stop. Go look at the Ontario government numbers again. Unless of course you are implying that the government numbers are not correct. Now who is bringing up conspiricy theories...
Even moving the goalposts to say that someone is not vaccinated until they have the third booster shot does not change the fact that the vaccine is not effective vs Omicron. Heck, even a fourth shot is not effective at stopping Omicron.
»www.cnn.com/2022/01/17/h ··· dex.html
I understand that people on both sides are invested in their current narrative but the only way to get past this and move forward on both sides is to follow the data and not emotions.
Hopefully getting people to understand that this is a pandemic of the vaccinated will help change the perception that the unvaccinated are responsible for the continued spread of the virus. Go back and look at the last 7 days worth of data posted in this thread by Walter D from the provincial data files. Every single day the case rate for the unvaccinated (not ICU, not hospital, just case rate) is about 1.3 to 1.5 times as high for the unvaccinated as the vaccinated -- so go review your own numbers. For hospitalization and ICU it's 3 to 6 times higher for the unvaccinated. So again you're wrong. |
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booj
join:2011-02-07
Richmond, ON |
to EnricoP
said by EnricoP:The data (science) is clear that vaccinated people are getting infected at a higher rate than unvaccinated. Full stop. Go look at the Ontario government numbers again. Unless of course you are implying that the government numbers are not correct. Now who is bringing up conspiricy theories... you are really bad at science. |
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