Toil and Trouble → Re: The upside down pyramid

Hitler killed millions.
Hitler was a capitalist.
Therefore, capitalism causes murder.

»www.intrepidsoftware.com ··· firm.htm

Sorry, but Hitler was a socialist, in charge of the National Socialist Party.

said by Beeper:

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Sorry, but Hitler was a socialist, in charge of the National Socialist Party.

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Hitler was a Fascist, get your facts straight.

The facts are that his politics was fascist, and his economics were socialist. The political and economics are two completely different things.

Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (NSDAP) – National Socialistic German Workers Party – 1920 to 1945 (and forever during the the Nurnberg trials). Hitler joined in 1920, became its leader/fuhrer in 1921, and 12 years latter (in 1933) the NSDAP was the largest political party in Germany. Socialist in name; repressive, brutal, corrupt and dictatorial in nature.

Oops, that description might also apply to a lot of the greedy “lion kings” of today’s business world, huh?

”I went to a restaurant that serves ‘breakfast at any time’. So I ordered French Toast during the Renaissance.” - - Steven Wright

said by Beeper:

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The facts are that his politics was fascist, and his economics were socialist. The political and economics are two completely different things.

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Your ignorance is showing Beeper, because that couldn't be further from the truth. In no way, shape, or form is Fascism like socialism. The "National Socialist" title is mis-leading, like "conservative" is in the UK, where that is what the liberals call themselves.

Er. Historically, you are wrong. If you look at the policies of National Socialism in Germany during the 30s and also at the policies of Stalin at the same time in the then-USSR you see parallel trends in terms of what was done.

The difference between Fascism and Marx-Lenin socialism [which masqueraded under the title of Communism, but which bore little resemblence to the philosophical treatise proposed by Marx] is actually little to known. Both emphasize totalitarianism under the state. It is in this way that once you go to the extreme right or to the extreme left, there is no difference between the two philosophies except in rhetoric.

said by pupowski:

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Your ignorance is showing Beeper, because that couldn't be further from the truth. In no way, shape, or form is Fascism like socialism.

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Let me repeat for the people slow on the uptake.

Fascism was a political system used by Hitler, built around a strong leader and contempt for democratic values

Socialism was a economic system used by Hitler, built around state plans for industry and its outputs, largely directed to remilitarizing the nation.

Politics does not equal economics.

The German economy was command driven by dictates from the Economics Ministry interpretations of the whims of the Hitler. They had state developed command plans like Goering's 4 Year Plan that were intended to rearm the nation, and to reduce unemployment. On that part, they were successful, at the cost of their gold reserves and massive deficit spending.

Having the government set output targets in industry
and agriculture smacks of socialism.

I think this sums it up nicely:

The Nazi economy can be characterized as a combination of both economic systems: capitalism and socialism. The Nazi economy was not socialism because most big businesses remained untouched, that largely meant encouraging big businesses, supporting powerful entrepreneurs such as Siemens, borisig, kropp, Thyssen, advocating enforced cartelization, elimination of inefficient small businesses and subsidizing industries. At the same time it was not capitalist because the state increasingly usurped the means of production. The Nazi economy was really a war economy in peacetime, which was directed by the need for the highest possible efficiency and productivity required for the conducting of war.

From »www.nyu.edu/classes/keef ··· rat.html

Regardless, Hitler's particular brand of dictatorship is not the issue. Your argument equating Marxism with mass-murder is an obvious logical fallacy.

said by Beeper:

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Having the government set output targets in industry and agriculture smacks of socialism.

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The United States has done that in time of war but this is not a socialist nation. Hitler was at war or preparing for it from the moment the Nazi's gained control of the German government. Wartime socio-economic policies are similar for Communist, capitalist, and fascist nations, but peacetime economies are not. In peacetime the Facscism is Corporatitism, the joining of Government and industry according to Fascist Dictator Benito Mussolini.

I agree with most of pupowski's sentiments.

Nazi Germany is a poor model for socialism and central government planning for the economy. The real socialist revolutionaries (Ernst Röhm) were liquidated in the Night of the Long Knives, then Hitler put bumbling fools (Göring) in charge of economic planning.

said by Beeper:

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I agree with most of pupowski's sentiments.
Nazi Germany is a poor model for socialism and central government planning for the economy....

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Socialism is present to some degree in most modern nations,but they aren't all socialist "welfare states". The Nordic countries definitely are, but those governments are not oppressive, and they encourage private ownership. China and the former Soviet bloc nations were Communists, not socialists.

Yeah but the United States had no other choice to get involved, anyways Hitler was a complete nut, the same with Castro, Stalin, and the rest of them. The dictators basically owned everything, but never encouraged ethical behavior. If anybody thinks that a genocide, trying to blow this country up with nukes is normal please let me know because I don't think it is. Anyways, remember what we fought for, if we didn't this country may not be here. Have a good 4th of July!
Erik