AT&T Southeast → Why the different route?

It's bad enough that I have to go through New Orleans then Dallas but could someone tell me why my DNS server is in Jacksonville,Fla. and I am way over here in Mississippi?

2002-12-21 17:35:17 EST: 795 / 121
Your download speed : 795428 bps, or 795 kbps.
A 97 KB/sec transfer rate.
Your upload speed : 121580 bps, or 121 kbps.

I don't know about you guys but I'm really getting annoyed.
Yesterday speed was down to 300..today it got up to 1150..
Now it's on the way down.

I've got to say it " this forum is starting to go downhill
very rapidly. Before this whole fiasco with BS mgt. we had people from BS, who cared. Now they don't give a hoot. Nobody from BS. has opened their mouth since thois started. You have to admit it's bad, even Leevis who was one of the most tireless and devoted to this forum has packed it in, in disgust, probably because he wasn't even a BS employee.

I'll be quiet now and try to figure out my options. Do I cable or wait????

Dave

Same situation here, Dave. Most of the day my download speed was off about 10% and my upload was fine. Within the past 30 minutes I went into the toilet!!!

2002-12-21 17:53:39 EST: 1095 / 89
Your download speed : 1095793 bps, or 1095 kbps.
A 133.7 KB/sec transfer rate.
Your upload speed : 89887 bps, or 89 kbps

Joe P

The biggest joke of the year.Bell South
...the current listing on the system status page...

System Status: FL, West Palm Beach

There are no known problems in FL, West Palm Beach.

I'm not laughing............:-(

Dave

Great post CyberRage. I'm sure glad somebody saved that type of data so we can now can have proof in the event that BS denies it.

I'm not sure how we can get the attention of the BS Reps here and I sure don't think that anyone wants to call Tech Support. Can you imagine explaining this to a Level 1 Tech???!!! I think the best hope we have is with one of the previous posters, damoncahill, because he is a business customer with 10 lines. That type of account should get BellSouth's attention!!

Joe P

OK, I was finally able to get in touch with someone who could contact the NOC directly to get an answer. Here is what I was told.

* BSFA currently has an initiative called BRIB (don't know the details of the acronym). The end goal of this initiative is to reduce the number of peers Bellsouth has to maintain with UUNET, it's backbone provider. The information I was given is they are going to reduce the number to three, with New Orleans being one of the biggest, and Raleigh/Durham, NC, not being one of the three. So, over the last two weeks, they have been changing the routing to route users internally to New Orleans, then on to UUNET. (The Charlotte area was transitioned Thursday night).

* There was an issue with capacity after this change, both internally to Bellsouth, and externally to UUNET once in New Orleans. There is apparently a ticket open with Worldcomm (UUNET) to try to get the backbone capacity issue resolved. There is also an internal ticket to fix the internal routing issues within Bellsouth before getting dropped off on the Backbone. The individual I spoke with said once this is resolved, the latency on the bellsouth network should decrease, as well as the latency once dropped off to UUNET. They currently don't have an ETR, but have an internal ticket open, ticket #144909.

* Their plan of action is to improve the issues with the new routing, not to change the routing back. From what I understand, and this was not stated directly, this is a decision about dollars and cents. It is more economical for BSFA to maintain 3 peering points to the backbone than 10.

* I was able to get this information because my company has numerous business class DSL lines in the southeast. I was able to escalate through our executive sales rep, since we have quite a bit of other business with Bellsouth in the Southeast (we are a fortune 100 company).

So, now the question is, what am I going to do in the meantime? First, I am going to be out of town for the next two weeks, so I am going to wait it out and see how things are when I return. If things don't improve, I will start investigating DSL availability through a CLEC (they aren't here yet, but are scheduled for 1st quarter next year), which some are offering 1500/768 with Static IP for 39.99/mo. I guess we shall just wait and see.

Finally, one final disclaimer, I have no way to validate everything that was told to me, so if you hear something different, please post it

[text was edited by author 2002-12-21 20:23:13]

Thanks for the information damoncahill!! You hit a homerun with that post!! Now that we have that information I am even more anxious to hear from this forums resident BS Rep.

Please check back here when you return from your trip and hopefully we'll have this issue resolved.

Thanks again for your effort.

Joe P

Note: There still remains the question as to why the BS Reps are avoiding this thread.
[text was edited by author 2002-12-21 20:37:09]

damoncahill,
Thanks for taking the time to try to get some info on this situation for us.

But why is Throwmaster the lucky one that's still routed to Atlanta?

And check this out

DSLReports:

1 2 ms 2 ms 2 ms adsl-17-x-x.bhm.bellsouth.net [68.17.x.x]
2 17 ms 18 ms 17 ms adsl-17-x-x.bhm.bellsouth.net [68.17.x.x]
3 17 ms 17 ms 18 ms adsl-21-226-33.bhm.bellsouth.net [66.21.226.33]
4 17 ms 22 ms 18 ms 207.203.159.249
5 26 ms 25 ms 26 ms 65.83.237.42
6 26 ms 27 ms 25 ms 65.83.236.36
7 27 ms 27 ms 26 ms 500.so-2-0-0.GW5.NOL1.ALTER.NET [65.208.10.21]
8 26 ms 28 ms 26 ms 0.so-3-0-0.CL1.NOL1.ALTER.NET [152.63.102.98]
9 40 ms 39 ms 48 ms 0.so-0-0-0.TL1.DFW9.ALTER.NET [152.63.0.193]
10 86 ms 85 ms 84 ms 0.so-2-2-0.TL1.NYC9.ALTER.NET [152.63.1.118]
11 85 ms 85 ms 85 ms 0.so-3-0-0.XL1.NYC1.ALTER.NET [152.63.27.29]
12 86 ms 86 ms 87 ms 0.so-0-0-0.XR1.NYC1.ALTER.NET [152.63.19.85]
13 87 ms 87 ms 86 ms 507.ATM6-0.GW7.NYC1.ALTER.NET [152.63.25.81]
14 82 ms 82 ms 82 ms nac-nyc-gw1.customer.alter.net [157.130.9.142]
15 84 ms 84 ms 85 ms www.dslreports.com [209.123.109.175]

Even since this routing change was made, my routing to work has been going through New Orleans to Dallas, back to Atlanta, and the to Birmingham. My work is in BIRMINGHAM, AL!!!! The route used to be B'ham - ATL - B'ham

1 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms adsl-17-x-x.bellsouth.net [68.17.x.x]
2 16 ms 16 ms 16 ms adsl-17-x-x.bhm.bellsouth.net [68.17.x.x]
3 16 ms 16 ms 16 ms adsl-21-226-33.bhm.bellsouth.net [66.21.226.33]
4 17 ms 16 ms 16 ms 207.203.159.249
5 26 ms 24 ms 24 ms 65.83.237.42
6 24 ms 25 ms 24 ms 65.83.236.36
7 25 ms 26 ms 24 ms 500.so-1-0-0.GW5.NOL1.ALTER.NET [65.208.10.245]
8 25 ms 26 ms 26 ms 0.so-2-0-0.CL2.NOL1.ALTER.NET [152.63.102.94]
9 39 ms 39 ms 39 ms 0.so-0-2-0.XL2.DFW9.ALTER.NET [152.63.1.246]
10 38 ms 39 ms 44 ms POS7-0.BR2.DFW9.ALTER.NET [152.63.99.213]
11 39 ms 39 ms 39 ms 204.255.168.54
12 62 ms 63 ms 63 ms tbr1-p013802.dlstx.ip.att.net [12.122.12.73]
13 56 ms 58 ms 57 ms tbr2-p013401.attga.ip.att.net [12.122.10.74]
14 57 ms 57 ms 57 ms gbr2-p20.attga.ip.att.net [12.122.12.38]
15 59 ms 59 ms 59 ms ar1-p3110.brhal.ip.att.net [12.123.197.165]
16 57 ms 58 ms 57 ms 12.119.132.18
17 59 ms 59 ms 59 ms 209.12.62.4
18 71 ms 69 ms 69 ms 216.170.x.x
19 85 ms 85 ms 86 ms 216.170.x.x

Now look what it's doing tonight

1 2 ms 2 ms 2 ms adsl-17-x-x.bhm.bellsouth.net [68.17.x.x]
2 18 ms 18 ms 18 ms adsl-17-x-x.bhm.bellsouth.net [68.17.x.x]
3 18 ms 19 ms 18 ms adsl-21-226-33.bhm.bellsouth.net [66.21.226.33]
4 18 ms 18 ms 18 ms 207.203.159.249
5 26 ms 31 ms 26 ms 65.83.237.42
6 27 ms 27 ms 25 ms 65.83.236.38
7 41 ms 40 ms 39 ms so-2-0-0.gar2.dal1.Level3.net [67.72.4.1]
8 39 ms 39 ms 39 ms unknown.Level3.net [64.159.3.193]
9 78 ms 78 ms 77 ms so-0-1-0.mp2.Philadelphia1.Level3.net [64.159.0.
142]
10 85 ms 86 ms 85 ms gig10-1.hsa1.Philadelphia1.level3.net [64.159.3.
30]
11 88 ms 85 ms 87 ms unknown.Level3.net [209.246.200.138]
12 82 ms 85 ms 83 ms unused-25.wan-ip-uslec.net [66.255.16.25]
13 * * * Request timed out.
14 88 ms 89 ms 88 ms 209.12.62.4
15 106 ms 104 ms 105 ms 216.170.x.x
16 109 ms 117 ms 117 ms 216.170.x.x

I'm at loss for words, anything I say would be inappropriate... Except, this is extremely poor routing, BSFA customers are being shafted, and I am a very unhappy long time customer (for over 2 1/2 years).

If we wanted high latency internet and it boiled down to "dollars and cents" as you put it - we'd just all go back to dial up.

To me DSL/Cable is the ANTI "dollars and cents" method of accessing the internet. People don't pay for a premium service (and yes broadband is still premium in this country) to hear cost cutting moves from thier provider. Especially against the old adage, once you give em something you can't take it away and that's exactly what it appears BellSouth is doing. No wonder no one connected with BellSouth has really took an interest in this thread.

Well, I would not mind if the pings/latency return to what they used to be with the new routing. If the new routing fails to go near the latency/ping that it was before the switch, I will be the first one to change to cable. I pay $50/month to get great pings.. not for them to screw around to try and save a little bit of money. Not letting us know about any of this was also a HUGE mistake. The least they could have done is BS a little and say there is a problem.

Don't shoot the messenger!

I agree with all of you. I am just passing along what I was told. Like I said, if things stay like this, I will be finding another provider!

damoncahill, frosty, nathan2 and tanerin:

I am in total agreement with all of you, particularly the part about looking for another provider. I know that a lot of people threaten to do that but most of the posters in this thread seem rather serious.

At this point I think we need to have some ideas as to how to get this issue recognized by the Rep(s) monitoring this forum. We certainly cannot allow this to continue and degrade further without being addressed.

Anyone got any ideas???

Joe P

Another dissatisfied Bellsouth customer here. I have been noticing the latency problems (routing all over the southeast) since, you guessed it, friday, which goes along with damoncahill's post. In a chat with tech support this evening i was told "Paul> I have been pinging and tracerouting people for five years and rarely if ever do I see a hop reprt that fast. your lucky" (i'm copying all correspondence) among many other idiotic statements; can't expect much from tier 1 support I guess.

Anyway, the more people that contact BS with problems, the more likely they are to listen and fix them; I just wish there was an easy way to get past the tier 1 guys that can't do anything to help.

BTW damon... in Huntersville also

Man this is pure crap. And after all the trouble I had to go to to get my DSL running from 256k to 1400k. It took my over a month to get that fixed and it wasn't through BS tier 1 support. Now Im at 81k! Proton1 where are you? Whats going on?

joepwpb and everyone else that's upset,

I know, and I hear you.
This is sad. A definite turn for the worse.

I doubt this would work, but if the source of the problem is UUNet and not Bellsouth.. What about everyone refusing the pay the UUNet part of their bill? I know, in the end we'd all have our accounts suspended pending payment. But it's an idea seeing how nothing else seems to be working. Of course like you said, if enough users switched to another provider, that might get their attention too. I hate to say this, but it almost seems like Bellsouth is becoming the AOL of the Southeast broadband providers.

Plus, anyone catch the 3 major things that happened this month? NetTech is gone, TSG is gone, routing goes down the toilet.

In my above post I gave the traceroute for home to work. Can you guys believe the route from work to home is totally different? I just logged in and did a traceroute from work.

1 10 ms 10 ms 10 ms 216.170.x.x
2 10 ms 10 ms 10 ms 216.170.x.x
3 10 ms 20 ms 10 ms 209.12.62.21
4 210 ms 40 ms 60 ms 12.119.132.17
5 20 ms 20 ms 20 ms gbr1-p56.attga.ip.att.net [12.123.197.162]
6 20 ms 20 ms 20 ms tbr2-p013502.attga.ip.att.net [12.122.12.33]
7 20 ms 20 ms 20 ms ggr1-p380.attga.ip.att.net [12.122.12.50]
8 20 ms 20 ms 20 ms att-gw.atl.uu.net [192.205.32.130]
9 41 ms 40 ms 40 ms 0.so-2-3-0.XL2.ATL5.ALTER.NET [152.63.82.194]
10 40 ms 50 ms 40 ms 0.so-1-0-0.TL2.ATL5.ALTER.NET [152.63.85.225]
11 70 ms 70 ms 70 ms 0.so-4-1-0.TL2.HOU7.ALTER.NET [152.63.9.226]
12 80 ms 90 ms 80 ms 0.so-5-0-0.CL2.NOL1.ALTER.NET [152.63.123.226]
13 80 ms 81 ms 90 ms 0.so-7-0-0.GW5.NOL1.ALTER.NET [152.63.102.101]
14 80 ms 80 ms 80 ms bs-nol-gw2.customer.alter.net [65.208.10.246]
15 80 ms 80 ms 90 ms 65.83.236.39
16 90 ms 90 ms 90 ms 65.83.237.43
17 91 ms 90 ms 90 ms 207.203.159.198
18 90 ms 90 ms 90 ms adsl-21-226-57.bhm.bellsouth.net [66.21.226.57]
19 110 ms 220 ms 110 ms adsl-17-x-x.bhm.bellsouth.net [68.17.x.x]

See hop #10? Used to come straight back to B'ham. Now goes to Houston, then New Orleans to B'ham.

Doesn't Bellsouth have regional managers in each state? What about contacting them and complaining?

said by damoncahill:

---

* BSFA currently has an initiative called BRIB (don't know the details of the acronym). The end goal of this initiative is to reduce the number of peers Bellsouth has to maintain with UUNET, it's backbone provider. The information I was given is they are going to reduce the number to three, with New Orleans being one of the biggest, and Raleigh/Durham, NC, not being one of the three. So, over the last two weeks, they have been changing the routing to route users internally to New Orleans, then on to UUNET. (The Charlotte area was transitioned Thursday night).

---

BRIB stands for "BellSouth Regional IP Backbone". I did some Googling and I found an article about it from the Miami Herald, written September 13. »www.miami.com/mld/miami/ ··· 0039.htm
It's light on technical details, of course, but unfortunately it's all I can find.

Here is a post in a thread at Packet Clearing House »www.pch.net/index.html

said by PCH Thread:

---

BellSouth considers longhaul going over a LATA boundary so yes, some of those rural and metro-to-metro routes where others don't have fiber are still pretty lucrative. You have to remember they have never had "peering" as you perceive it. They had BGP4 established with UUNET but they had to pay due to LD rules. Since they don't have a national network they still "pay" UUNET and now Level 3 to pick up their traffic in the 3 new consolidated pops (with LD relief they are just going from an IP POP per LATA (~38) to just 3 IP POPs in the SE region). It's a big deal economically for them to consolidate their IP traffic...the MIX was a switched optical/ethernet mesh MAN infrastructure to support other people's peering, BellSouth itself legally couldn't peer with other ISPs in FL at the time. All it really says is they are migrating some of the ip control plane optics from the MIX to build their regional retail IP backbone to support new services like UNI 1.0 and virtual concatenation. They are
still working on the peering part.

Susan Campbell
Former President - BellSouth MIX

---

Here is the thread: »www.pch.net/resources/di ··· 237.html

Thanks to Jazzman
We now know really what is going on. The reason the traffic routing problems and the reason (as I read between the lines)for the demise of the TSG and lack of support from our old friends from BS on the forum. their hands are tied, they can't say anything or do anything to help.
------------------------------------------------------
Posted on Fri, Sep. 13, 2002 BellSouth changes strategy of South Florida Internet network BY BEATRICE E. GARCIA bgarcia@herald.com

BellSouth is changing the character and the mission of its South Florida Internet network.

BellSouth's Florida Multimedia Internet Exchange (MIX) won't be billed as a major Internet access point. But the Internet network will expand outside South Florida and eventually move into the nine-state region serviced by BellSouth in order to capitalize on its newly gained entry into the long-distance market.

BellSouth set up its Florida MIX last summer as a major Internet network access point, or NAP, where Internet traffic changes hands, with four connection points: downtown Miami, West Miami-Dade, Fort Lauderdale and Boca Raton.

It was meant to compete with the NAP of the Americas, built in downtown Miami by Terremark Worldwide.

However, sources say the Florida MIX never attracted many customers interested in exchanging Internet traffic between major networks. But it did sign carriers and business customers who used the network to transport Internet traffic within South Florida.

Now that the Atlanta-based company has gained approval to offer long-distance service in Georgia and Louisiana and its application for Florida is pending before federal regulators, the company is setting the groundwork to take its data network services beyond state lines. Long-haul transport is a lucrative service.

David Sutton, a company spokesman, said ''BellSouth is creating a next-generation Internet backbone,'' which is a system of networks and servers used to move Internet traffic long-distance.

BellSouth is calling its new design the BellSouth Regional IP Backbone (BRIB).

The BRIB will feature three central points of presence in Atlanta, Miami and New Orleans.

Sutton said BellSouth will release more information about the BRIB within the next few weeks.
--------------------------------------------------

Thanks for nothing Bell South. Take your long distance service and stick it..You're no better than AOL, in fact you're worse because the AOL'ers don't know any better and you'e sticking it to guys with some knowledge and experience.

At this point in time I chose the send an IM to Andy Houtz in an effort to get somebody from BS involved in this issue. I would suggest if you are affected by this issue that you do the same. Here is the message I sent:

To: (Andy Houtz ) Andy,

There is an issue being discussed on the BS forum under the heading, "Why the different route?" which I believe warrants your attention. This thread was started back on December 7th and to date has yet to be addressed by you or any other BS Rep who frequents this forum. This routing issue is impacting both business and home users of which there are many who have posted in this thread. It is my understanding that your presence here is to assist BS customers with various issues which are in some cases difficult in nature. I do not understand why you have been on this forum many, many times since December 7th but have yet to get involved in this pressing issue. As of the posting of this IM I noticed that you are on the forum again but have failed to take on this issue.

On behalf of the many home and business customers of BSFA I request that you either get involved in the resolution of this issue or pass it on to the appropriate department. Whatever direction you choose it would be in the best interest of all involved if you would, at minimum, post your position on this matter.

Thanks

Joe P

He can't respond because of the proprietary nature of the 'explaination'. Let's just say that 'big brother' is aware of this issue, and is working on getting it resolved as soon as possible. Nothing more can be said about it.

BellSouth is updating and changing its backbone infrastructure. When it is completed it will probably be the best and fastest of any provider. It will include more POP access and customers will see less hops and reduced latency. The big problem is implementing the new system while trying not to impact or disconnect anyone. Since we are making changes on an operational network some routes had to be changed. The UUNET routing has been a known problem and effects almost all internet users. It should all be completed soon.
Andy Houtz
BSIS TSG

Thanks for responding Andy. Maybe things will be better when the update is completed. I guess we'll all have to take a "wait and see" attitude.

Thanks for they reply Andy. But, I do have one question. Would it be to must to ask if knows of a target date? Maybe 2 weeks, 2 months or 2 years? Just wondering how long we have to suffer.

So we're the bait so BellSouth can get to carry long distance in some states?

So Andy, does that mean we will be routed through Atlanta first as usual once again in the near future?

said by Rogerquake9:

---

So Andy, does that mean we will be routed through Atlanta first as usual once again in the near future?

---

Don't hold your breath waiting for an answer to that one.

Andy spun us as good an answer as he is allowed. He could be a politician the way he skirted the issue. No offense intended Andy, I meant that as a compliment. You're too good for the job.

Dave..:[

All,

For what it is worth, I have copied a little of Joe's message to Andy and will be sending it to our contacts at Bellsouth.

_____________________Quote________________________________

To Whom it May Concern:

There is an issue being discussed on the BS forum on DSL Reports under the heading, "Why the different route?" which I believe warrants your attention. This thread was started back on December 7th and to date has yet to be addressed by any BS Rep who frequents this forum, or any third level technical support reps we have been able to reach over the phone. This routing issue is impacting our business (Removed) as well as home users of which there are many who have posted in this thread. I have been trying to get an official answer on why this took place and when it is going to be resolved, and have not had much luck. I believe this warrants an answer by someone who can give us a direct answer. The issues seems to revolve around Bellsouth forming the BRIB (Bellsouth Regional IP Backbone) which is consolidate peering to UUNET in Miami, Atlanta, and New Orleans. This is having a critical impact on the business we use these lines for.

I am looking for an official answer on when we can expect our routing to return to normal. With this information, I can make a more informed decision on whether to continue using Bellsouth for this Business, or start seeking an alternate provider. (My Company) does a tremendous amount of Voice and Data business with Bellsouth in the entire 9 state region. We at least deserve an explanation and answer.

Thanks in advance for your help!

Sincerely,
Damon Cahill
Sr. Network Architect
(removed)

I imagine we have heard what we are going to hear. I doubt the upper ranks will give us any information. Most likely if anyone from BS or BSIS responds with any information here it will cost them their job.

It would be nice to have a rough time frame. Most realistic people will give a provider some time to complete such a project but at the same time a realistic provider would give some time frame for completion.

When we receive as little information as we have it tends to cause people like me to contemplate the possibility that the company has an idea they want to try but really have no idea how well it will come together.

Now this last idea is just guessing on my part. I'm thinking that when BS wasn't able to provide long distance service BSIS had to rely on UUNET to transport our connections across state lines or maybe even LATA's until we reached a gateway. Now that BS can provide long distance they would rather transport as much of their own traffic as possible to save money. I see nothing wrong with that. But to make that happen I think there is going to have be some fiber pulled. I don't really think BS has the lines to handle a huge traffic load.

Not knowing how long BS expects it will take to complete this project means I have no idea how long I should be patient so I'm not sure how long I will. That's a pretty simple concept, BellSouth. Patients tend to last longer when we know what to expect.