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dannyboy 950
Premium Member
join:2002-12-30
Port Arthur, TX

dannyboy 950

Premium Member

something trying to change ntoskrnl.exe

Application has changed since the last time you opened it, process id: 4
Filename: C:\WINDOWS\System32\ntoskrnl.exe
The change was denied by user

---- Modules changed: 1 ----
C:\WINDOWS\System32\ntoskrnl.exe
---- New modules: 0 ----

This has been happening randomly lately.
Any ideas why. It appears to come from within my system yet I have changed nothing that I can think of.
dannyboy 950

dannyboy 950

Premium Member

Well it has to do with the boot loader and can be infected but Avg updated finds nothing as well as A squared and ewido.

NanDog
The Pup Was Female, I'M Not
Premium Member
join:2003-12-28
Bremerton, WA

NanDog to dannyboy 950

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to dannyboy 950
This is what LiUtilities has to say about that file:

»www.liutilities.com/prod ··· toskrnl/

Also, someone who had the same error message you did:

»www.computing.net/securi ··· 699.html

Perhaps not much but I hope it helps!
dannyboy 950
Premium Member
join:2002-12-30
Port Arthur, TX

dannyboy 950

Premium Member

Thanks NanDog

I have found several posts in various forums about this but no soloutions as yet. Must be one of thoes oddball problems

There is a trojan listed that exploits this but my scanners dont find it so not sure if thats it or not.
TheWiseGuy
Dog And Butterfly
MVM
join:2002-07-04
East Stroudsburg, PA

TheWiseGuy to dannyboy 950

MVM

to dannyboy 950
Have you done a Windows update recently? It might have changed the file. Find the file in the system32 folder. Check the properties. When was it modified? What is the version? What is the size? While none of these guarantee that it isn't a problem it is a first step.

Scan the file at one of the scanning sites.

»www.kaspersky.com/scanfo ··· rus.html
»www.ravantivirus.com/sca ··· dexn.php
»virusscan.jotti.dhs.org/

If these steps don't alleviate your concern, submit it as suspected Malware.

»Security »I think my computer is infected or hijacked. What should I do?
dave
Premium Member
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio

dave to NanDog

Premium Member

to NanDog

about ntoskrnl.exe

said by liutilities:
ntoskrnl.exe is a critical process in the boot-up cycle of your computer although should never appear in WinTasks whilst under normal circumstances.
LiUtilities is a little under-informed.

ntoskrnl.exe is the operating system. It is not something that runs under the operating system, it is the operating system itself.

It is not 'a process', it is the operating system.

It does not just run 'during boot-up', it is the operating system.

It is not the boot loader; that is the file ntldr (on x86 hardware).

So if there is something that puts malware into ntoskrnl.exe, it's very serious indeed. On the other hand, is the average antivirus utility equipped to find virii in OS code rather than application programs? I suspect not.

My instinct is that this is a false alarm, mainly based on the poor wording of the error message: 'application', 'since you last opened it', etc.

Name Game
Premium Member
join:2002-07-07
Grand Rapids, MI

Name Game to dannyboy 950

Premium Member

to dannyboy 950

Re: something trying to change ntoskrnl.exe

hard to tell what happened..but Sygate does a good job..maybe too good some times letting you know even when internel things are happening...
With the advent of Service Pack 2, Microsoft have removed the words 'Home' or 'Professional' from the Windows Splash Screen. The bitmaps for these words were contained in the file NTOSKRNL.EXE. That file has been changed so as to remove those two bitmaps. It is not a service pack bug but deliberate. Why?? I have no idea.

»www.webuser.co.uk/cgi-bi ··· 93&part=

»groups.google.com/groups ··· rame=off

Ntoskrnl.exe systemroot\System32 The core (also called the kernel) of the Windows XP Professional operating system. Code that runs as part of the kernel does so in privileged processor mode and has direct access to system data and hardware.
During installation on single processor systems, Windows XP Professional Setup copies Ntoskrnl.exe from the operating system CD . During installation on multi-processor systems, Windows XP Professional Setup copies Ntoskrnlmp.exe and renames it Ntoskrnl.exe.

see here

»www.iceteks.com/forums/i ··· pic=2445

»forums.windrivers.com/ar ··· /t-58320

NTOSKRNL.EXE It's a protected file of the XP system, you can replace it, But One Of The Newest Features of XP, Windows File Protection (WFP) Will Replace Again With The Original NTOSKRNL.EXE File, If You Want To Change The Logo, You Need To Replace It Booting In Safe Mode and Spending a Lot of Time.
If You Download a NTOSKRNL.EXE You Have a Possibility Of Get a File Infected By a Virus, Bad Checksummed and More Probabily In Another Language Than Your OS.
dannyboy 950
Premium Member
join:2002-12-30
Port Arthur, TX

dannyboy 950

Premium Member

Interestng info.
Most references concern wireless services but I have none and that service is disabled.

Now I have installed a couple of microsoft updates in the last 2 weeks but then Sygate is alerting to the changes about 12 days late LOL.

Will keep an eye on this and investigate further.

Thanks for all of the informed replys.

dadkins
Can you do Blu?
MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA

1 edit

dadkins to dannyboy 950

MVM

to dannyboy 950
NM
dadkins

dadkins to dave

MVM

to dave

Re: about ntoskrnl.exe

Click for full size
It is merely the Boot Screen! NOT the OS! I changed mine to a Garfield Boot Screen.

»www.themexp.org/how_install.php (about half way down(see also pic))
dannyboy 950
Premium Member
join:2002-12-30
Port Arthur, TX

dannyboy 950

Premium Member

Thanks dadkins

I had seen those references before but I dont use an alternate boot screen so I had kind of ignored that. It didnt seem relevant but who knows it might be.

Mats
Here kitty and the chimp. Smash
Premium Member
join:2002-03-16

Mats to dadkins

Premium Member

to dadkins
said by dadkins:

It is merely the Boot Screen! NOT the OS!
you might want to rethink what you just typed, no matter what your pic shows.

dadkins
Can you do Blu?
MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA

dadkins

MVM

It seems that Microsoft has been doing some serious compression then! XP is just a bit bigger than 2.08MB...
dave
Premium Member
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio

1 edit

dave to dadkins

Premium Member

to dadkins
said by dadkins:


It is merely the Boot Screen!
Utter nonsense. The OS kernel has been called ntoskrnl.exe since 1993 and they haven't changed it now.

Sure, the OS kernel contains the initialization-time logo. It also contains the rest of the OS kernel.
XP is just a bit bigger than 2.08MB...
But the OS kernel, which is most of what is traditionally called 'the operating system', is not the same thing as "XP".

"The operating system", to OS purists, does not include shells, GUIs, device drivers, etc. "The operating system" does resource allocation, scheduling, synchronization, process control, etc.

2MB is kind of large for an OS kernel, by my way of thinking.

But don't take my word for it; take a look at what this company called 'Microsoft' thinks that ntoskrnl.exe does.

(See here)

dadkins
Can you do Blu?
MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA

2 edits

dadkins

MVM

Cool!
From your linked page:

"The core (also called the kernel) of the Windows XP Professional operating system. Code that runs as part of the kernel does so in privileged processor mode and has direct access to system data and hardware."

(Emphasis mine ) I say again, it is NOT the OS. At most, it is "part of the kernel".

Have a great evening all!
dave
Premium Member
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio

dave to dannyboy 950

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to dannyboy 950

Re: something trying to change ntoskrnl.exe

The words Operating System and kernel are practically synonymous.

Notice that the Wikipedia article says that using 'operating system' for 'all the stuff that comes with the computer' is merely colloquial.

Your parsing of the Microsoft article is also faulty. It does not say that 'ntoskrnl.exe' runs as part of the kernel, it says it is the kernel. It then describes what any part of that kernel can do.

Hey, but don't mind me, I've only been writing kernel-mode stuff for 27 years.

Mats
Here kitty and the chimp. Smash
Premium Member
join:2002-03-16

Mats

Premium Member

said by dave:

Hey, but don't mind me, I've only been writing kernel-mode stuff for 27 years.
dont worry about it.. let him think its merely the "boot screen" :o

keith2468
Premium Member
join:2001-02-03
Winnipeg, MB

keith2468 to dannyboy 950

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to dannyboy 950
In general I'd never hesitate to scan a suspicious file and to send it in for analysis if I had any lingering doubts.

Just because file X is supposed to do function Y doesn't mean your file X has not been altered to do function Y and also function Z.

Here are some free web based scanner that you can get second opinions of the file from:
»Security »What are some web based virus scanners and encyclopedias?

And if you still have suspicions about the file, this is the easiest way to get multiple opinions about it:
»Security »I think my computer is infected or hijacked. What should I do?

The experts can compare it to known files of the same name and see if there is a match.

You should get a couple of replies back within a few hours.

dadkins
Can you do Blu?
MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA

1 edit

dadkins to dave

MVM

to dave
Click for full size
You tell me what the linked page says then... BTW, I quoted from the page you linked to.

Have a good evening everyone!
dave
Premium Member
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio

dave to dannyboy 950

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to dannyboy 950
Okay.
The core (also called the kernel) of the Windows XP Professional operating system.
OK, that says that the ntoskrnl.exe is the 'core' of the OS. It says that this core is referred to as 'the kernel'. Which is to say, ntoskrnl.exe contains the OS kernel. Note, not 'part of' the kernel.
Code that runs as part of the kernel does so in privileged processor mode and has direct access to system data and hardware.
This is informing you what an OS kernel can do. Any part of that kernel can do thse things. A kernel is normally construed as having subcomponents, i.e., parts, such as the virtual memory subsystem, a dispatcher, possibly a scheduler as a distinct entity, a process subsystem, and so on. Any one of these parts has the power to futz with system data and with hardware.

The sentence does not say that ntoskrnl.exe is 'part of' the kernel. Its grammatical structure simply does not admit of that interpretation.
During installation on single processor systems, Windows XP Professional Setup copies Ntoskrnl.exe from the operating system CD. During installation on multi-processor systems, Windows XP Professional Setup copies Ntoskrnlmp.exe and renames it Ntoskrnl.exe.
And that should be straightforward enough.

dadkins
Can you do Blu?
MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA

dadkins

MVM

Cool!

Have a good evening!
dave
Premium Member
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio

dave

Premium Member

'night.
dannyboy 950
Premium Member
join:2002-12-30
Port Arthur, TX

dannyboy 950

Premium Member

I wish to thank you all exellent info altho we did get offtopic abit from my origional problem LOL even me.

Keith i tried opening the nostkernal folder and it wont let me ERROR canot open with WIN system32??? So am unable to copy the file to send in for comparison.

Well its way past this old mans bed time Gnite all

Name Game
Premium Member
join:2002-07-07
Grand Rapids, MI

1 edit

Name Game to dannyboy 950

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to dannyboy 950
Hi Danny,
Do not even worry about sending your ntoskrnl.exe to anyone..enough people have posted in this thread to make it time for you to understand what happens to your PC when you turn it on with XP installed. and to tie it in with the NT Loader...the NT OS Kernel..the Hal ..etc.

The change in your ntoskrnl.exe in normal the way Sygate Professional looks at it..:)

There are many reasons for it to change..it is not infected.

Startup Phases for x86-based Systems

The Windows XP Professional startup process closely resembles that of Microsoft® Windows NT® version 4.0 and Microsoft® Windows® 2000, but significantly differs from Microsoft® MS-DOS®, Microsoft® Windows® 95, Microsoft® Windows® 98, and Microsoft® Windows® Millennium Edition (Windows Me).

All computers running Windows XP Professional share the same startup sequence:

Power-on self test (POST) phase
Initial startup phase
Boot loader phase
Detect and configure hardware phase
Kernel loading phase
Logon phase

The preceding startup sequence applies to systems started or restarted after a normal shutdown, and does not apply when you bring your computer out of hibernation or standby. See "Resolving Power Management Problems on x86-based Systems" later in this chapter for more information about problems that might occur when you bring your computer out of standby or hibernation.

For Windows XP Professional to start, the system and boot partitions must contain the files listed in Table 28.1.

Table 28.1 Windows XP Professional x86-based Startup Files

File Name Disk Location Description
Ntldr Root of the system partition The operating system loader.
Boot.ini Root of the system partition A file that specifies the paths to Windows XP Professional installations. For multiple-boot systems, Boot.ini contains the operating system choices that display on the startup menu.
Bootsect.dos (multiple-boot systems only) Root of the system partition A hidden system file that Ntldr loads for a Windows XP Professional multiple-boot configuration that includes MS-DOS, Windows 95, Windows 98, or Windows Me. Bootsect.dos contains the boot sector for these operating systems.
Ntdetect.com Root of the system partition The file that passes information about the hardware configuration to Ntldr.
Ntbootdd.sys Root of the system partition (required for SCSI or Advanced Technology Attachment (ATA) controllers with firmware disabled or that do not support extended INT-13 calls). The device driver used to access devices attached to a SCSI or ATA hard disk whose adapter is not using BIOS. The contents of this file depend on the startup controller used.
Ntoskrnl.exe systemroot\System32 The core (also called the kernel) of the Windows XP Professional operating system. Code that runs as part of the kernel does so in privileged processor mode and has direct access to system data and hardware.
During installation on single processor systems, Windows XP Professional Setup copies Ntoskrnl.exe from the operating system CD . During installation on multi-processor systems, Windows XP Professional Setup copies Ntoskrnlmp.exe and renames it Ntoskrnl.exe.

Hal.dll systemroot\System32 The Hardware abstraction layer (HAL) dynamic-link library file. The HAL abstracts low-level hardware details from the operating system and provides a common programming interface to devices of the same type (such as video adapters).
The Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional operating system CD contains several Hal files. Setup copies to your computer the file that fits your hardware configuration and then renames the file as Hal.dll.

System registry file systemroot\System32\Config\System The registry file that contains the data used to create the registry key HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM. This key contains information that the operating system requires to start devices and system services.
Device drivers systemroot\System32\Drivers Driver files for hardware devices, such as keyboard, mouse, and video.

Note

Windows NT 4.0, Windows 2000, and Windows XP Professional define the "system" and "boot" partitions differently from other operating systems. The system volume contains files that are needed to start Windows XP Professional, such as the Windows loader (Ntldr). The boot volume contains Windows XP Professional operating system files and folders such as systemroot and systemroot\System32. In x86-based computers, the boot volume can be, but does not have to be, the same volume as the system volume.
In Table 28.1, the term systemroot is one of many environment variables used to associate string values, such as folder or file paths, to variables that Windows XP Professional applications and services use. For example, by using environment variables, scripts can run without modification on computers that have different configurations. To obtain a list of environment variables that you can use for troubleshooting, type set at the command line.

For more information about environment variables, see "To add or change the values of environment variables" in Windows XP Professional Help and Support Center. For more information about system files, see "System Files Reference" in this book.

Kernel Loading Phase

Ntldr is responsible for loading the Windows kernel (Ntoskrnl.exe) and the hardware abstraction layer (HAL) into memory. The Hal.dll file that your computer uses can vary. During installation, Windows XP Professional Setup copies one of several HAL files (see Table 28.2 for a list of these files) and renames the file Hal.dll.

Together, the kernel and the HAL initialize a group of software components that are called the Windows executive. The Windows executive processes the configuration information stored in registry control sets, and starts services and drivers.

Ntldr uses the control set identified by the Default value unless you choose the Last Known Good Configuration from the Windows Advanced Options menu.

The kernel uses the internal data structures provided by Ntldr to create the HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\HARDWARE key, which contains the hardware data collected at system startup. The data includes information about various hardware components and system resources allocated to each device. You can monitor the kernel load process by viewing the Starting up progress indicator that appears during startup. For more information about Last Known Good Configuration, see "Tools for Troubleshooting" in this book.

Windows XP Professional supports an extensive set of devices. New or updated drivers that are not on the Windows XP Professional operating system CD are provided by hardware manufacturers. Drivers are kernel-mode components required by devices to function within an operating system. Services are components that support operating system functions and applications. Services can run in a different context than user applications and typically do not offer many user-configurable options. Services, such as the Print Spooler, do not require a user to be logged on to run and act independently of the user who is logged on to the system. Windows XP Professional driver and service files are typically stored in the systemroot\System32 and systemroot\System32\Drivers folders and use .exe, .sys, or .dll file name extensions.

Drivers are also services. Therefore, during kernel initialization, Ntldr and Ntoskrnl.exe use the information stored in the HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\servicename registry subkeys to determine both the drivers and services to load. For example, Ntldr searches the Services subkey for drivers with a Start value of 0, such as hard disk controllers. After Ntldr starts Ntoskrnl.exe, an Ntoskrnl.exe component searches for and starts drivers, such as network protocols, that have a Start value of 1.

Some drivers and services require that certain dependencies be met before they start. You can find dependencies listed under the DependOnGroup and DependOnService entries in the HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\servicename subkey for each service or driver. For more information about using dependencies to prevent or delay a driver or service from starting, see "Temporarily Disabling Services" later in this chapter. The Services subkey also contains information that affects how drivers and services are loaded, a few of which are listed in Table 28.5.

Session Manager
After all entries that have Boot and Startup data types are processed, the kernel starts Session Manager. Session Manager (Smss.exe) performs important initialization functions, such as:

Creating system environment variables.
Starting the kernel-mode portion of the Windows subsystem (implemented by systemroot\System32\Win32k.sys), which causes Windows XP Professional to switch from text mode to graphics mode. Windows-based applications run in the Windows subsystem. This environment allows applications to access operating system functions, such as displaying information to the screen.
Starting the user-mode portion of the Windows subsystem (implemented by systemroot\System32\Csrss.exe).
Starting the Logon Manager (systemroot\System32\Winlogon.exe).
Creating additional virtual memory paging files.
Performing delayed rename operations for files listed in the registry entry HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Session Manager\PendingFileRenameOperations. For example, you might be prompted to restart the computer after installing a new driver or application so that Windows XP Professional can replace the file in use.
The Windows subsystem and the applications that run within it are user mode processes; they do not have direct access to hardware or device drivers. User-mode processes run at a lower priority than kernel-mode processes. When the operating system needs more memory, it can page to disk the memory that is used by user-mode processes. For more information about user-mode and kernel-mode components, see "Common Stop Messages for Troubleshooting" in this book.

Session Manager searches the registry for service information that is contained in the following subkeys:

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Session Manager contains a list of commands to run before loading services. The Autochk.exe tool is specified by the value of the BootExecute entry and virtual memory (paging file) settings stored in the Memory Management subkey. Autochk, which is a version of the Chkdsk tool, runs at startup if the operating system detects a file system problem that requires repair before completing the startup process. For more information about Autochk and Chkdsk, see "Troubleshooting Disks and File Systems" in this book.
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Session Manager\Subsystems contains a list of available subsystems. For example, Csrss.exe contains the user-mode portion of the Windows subsystem.
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\servicename. The Service Control Manager initializes services that the Start entry designates as Auto-load.

http://www.microsoft.com/resources/documentation/Windows/XP/all/reskit/en-us/Default.asp?url=/resources/documentation/Windows/XP/all/reskit/en-us/prmc_str_reii.asp

keith2468
Premium Member
join:2001-02-03
Winnipeg, MB

1 edit

keith2468 to dannyboy 950

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to dannyboy 950
Hi Danny, any programmer can make a file and call it ntsoskrnl.exe. And a real hacker could make a file called ntsoskrnl.exe and have it do what the normal ntsoskrnl.exe does, plus a few extra things that aren't supposed to be there. Even the properties you see when you right-click the file can be doctored to make them what you expect.

So I advise you to definitely send the file off for analysis to your regular AV vendor, the one whose product is giving the alarm.

If it is a false alarm, then the alarm system needs to be adjusted, so to speak. The AV heuristic rules could be alerted so that it has rules on when to ignore changes in checksums of the specific file.

It is dangerous if there is a situation where users simply ignore a virus alert as a defect we put up with.

Especially if this is a common occurance with certain products. It would mean there would be a well known file into which hackers could insert backdoors and other functions, and users would ignore any warning from their AV.

So even if this is a false positive, which is what I think is maybe 85% likely, you need to get that fixed. (And there is the chance it isn't a false positive.)




You should be able to right-click on the file, select "Send To" and "Compressed (Zipped) Folder". (You don't want to move the file, because you still need it to run your system. You are making a copy of it.)

This will make a copy and compress it into ntoskrnl.zip in the same folder. (Windows XP considers zip files to be compressed folders. The compressed folder will be in the same directory as ntsoskrnl.zip.)

Now open ntsoskrnl.zip with Windows Explorer. Do "File" and "Add password". Make the password infected. Close the zip file.

Now follow the instructions here to email ntsoskrnl.zip off to the AV vendors:
»Security »I think my computer is infected or hijacked. What should I do?

Be sure to mention what Name Game posted in your email, maybe give them a link to this topic. He probably has the explanation, but the AV vendor still has a false alarm to fix.

Let us know what the vendor comes back with.

And just always as a general rule, if a vendor's AV product with up-to-date signatures reports a file as suspect, send the file to that vendor for analysis. The AV companies can be doing their analysis while we are discussing what files with that name are supposed to do. Early samples of new and rare malware are valuable to the AV vendors. And they use automated tools to filter known files, so don't worry too too much about wasting their time.

Mats
Here kitty and the chimp. Smash
Premium Member
join:2002-03-16

Mats

Premium Member

said by keith2468:

So I advise you to definitely send the file off for analysis to your regular AV vendor, the one whose product is giving the alarm.
his AV is not giving the alarm.. His firewall(Sygate) with dll authentication, is the one warning him of the change..

keith2468
Premium Member
join:2001-02-03
Winnipeg, MB

keith2468

Premium Member

It is 1 am here and I'm tired. If you've read my FAQs you know I know Sygate is actually a firewall.

I don't get ZA flagging the change. It is a simple problem for sygate to fix.

Mats
Here kitty and the chimp. Smash
Premium Member
join:2002-03-16

Mats

Premium Member

i wasnt disputing the fact that you know Sygate is a firewall.. i am sure you do.. you mentioned AV, which is why i thought you were talking about his AV.. a simple misunderstanding..

ZA doesnt flag the change because ZA does not have DLL Aunthentication.. there is nothing for Sygate to fix..

Name Game
Premium Member
join:2002-07-07
Grand Rapids, MI

Name Game to dannyboy 950

Premium Member

to dannyboy 950
Danny,
I do have a question for you..did you try yet that Free sygate firewall viewer ?

»forum.gladiator-antiviru ··· ic=15434
your moderator at work