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Jim Gurd
Premium Member
join:2000-07-08
Livonia, MI

Jim Gurd

Premium Member

Lowes Hacker gets 9 years

Story below from Yahoo News.

»news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl ··· rinter=1
B04
Premium Member
join:2000-10-28

B04

Premium Member


They got 9 years for the electronic equivalent of breaking and entering!

According to article, at least, they never actually succeeded in "stealing" any information at all.

I'm not sure how I feel about this case. Had they succeeded in stealing credit card numbers or actual money, that would be different.

-- B
Okman5
join:2001-10-01
92714

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There are more CEO's who have stolen much MUCH more money from investors who get off with a slap on the wrist. Enron, Imclone, World Com, Global Wind,... are recent examples.

ironwalker
World Renowned
MVM
join:2001-08-31
Keansburg, NJ

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ironwalker

MVM

said by Okman5:

There are more CEO's who have stolen much MUCH more money from investors who get off with a slap on the wrist. Enron, Imclone, World Com, Global Wind,... are recent examples.
Doesnt make it right.
He broke into a system he had no business being in whatsoever.

Steve
I know your IP address

join:2001-03-10
Tustin, CA

Steve to B04

to B04
said by B04:

According to article, at least, they never actually succeeded in "stealing" any information at all.
... which wasn't for lack of trying. Lowe's caught+tracked them before they could finish.

This was not a case of simple wardriving where they wandered around inside longer than they should have: they hopped from a store's network to the corporate network and planted software on a central UNIX system to capture this CC info, and my understanding is that they would have been successful had they not been found.

They were completely, utterly criminal: the fact that Lowe's was more on the ball than others should not mitigate their own guilt (yes, I know that Lowe's should have had better wireless security, blah blah blah).

Steve
B04
Premium Member
join:2000-10-28

2 edits

B04

Premium Member

So if I catch you in my den with burglar tools and a forklift, you can be prosecuted as if you'd actually loaded up my furniture on the forklift and driven away?

(I'm not being contradictory; I'm actually asking, if anyone knows the legal finesses here.)

-- B

Edit: just had to correct misspelling.

Steve
I know your IP address

join:2001-03-10
Tustin, CA

Steve

said by B04:

So if I catch you in my den with burgular tools and a forklift, you can be prosecuted as if you'd actually loaded up my furniture on the forklift and driven away?
I would certainly hope so.

state
stress magnet
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join:2002-02-08
Purgatory

state to B04

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said by B04:

So if I catch you in my den with burgular tools and a forklift, you can be prosecuted as if you'd actually loaded up my furniture on the forklift and driven away?
Interesting example, here's something on point:
quote:
All criminal statutes define crimes in terms of required acts and a required state of mind, usually described as the actor's "intent." These requirements are known as the "elements" of the offense. A prosecutor must convince a judge or jury that the person charged with the crime (the defendant) did the acts and had the intent described in the statute. For example, commercial burglary is commonly defined as entering a structure (such as a store) belonging to another person, with the intent to commit petty or grand theft (that is, to steal) or any felony.

To convict a person of this offense, the prosecutor would have to prove three elements:

1. The defendant entered the structure.
2. The structure belonged to another person.
3. At the time the defendant entered the structure, he intended to commit petty or grand theft or any felony.

You will have to do the same when you read the law. Parse the crime into its required elements to see if each applies in your situation.

From: »www.nolo.com/lawcenter/e ··· E1FB5ED1
B04
Premium Member
join:2000-10-28

B04

Premium Member


Thank you state! Very much on point.

Now I do note that the burglary itself is NOT the same as a successful grand theft or other felony stemming from that burglary. I imagine the offenses would be combined or tried separately.

So I can only hope that, in the instant case, the Lowes trespassers would have received considerably GREATER punishment if they had actually succeeded.

But I kind of doubt it.

-- B

P.S. Nuts. I misspelled "burglar tools" above.

Spy4
Premium Member
join:2001-09-22
NE

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give him 40 years..This way he can't get a job at google when he comes out.:)

state
stress magnet
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join:2002-02-08
Purgatory

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said by B04:

So I can only hope that, in the instant case, the Lowes trespassers would have received considerably GREATER punishment if they had actually succeeded.

But I kind of doubt it.
Hard to say, but according to the article it's the longest prison term ever handed down for computer crimes in the US.....Kevin Mitnick only got 5 and a half years...thats saying something.
state

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said by Spy4:

give him 40 years..This way he can't get a job at google when he comes out.:)
Nah, he'll get a Security Job instead

Spy4
Premium Member
join:2001-09-22
NE

Spy4

Premium Member

said by state:

said by Spy4:


give him 40 years..This way he can't get a job at google when he comes out.:)
Nah, he'll get a Security Job instead
Wow, that's great..I posted about him here...»'White collar' virus writers make cash from chaos

Nice work.:)
Curiosity
join:2001-10-01
Dawson Creek, BC

Curiosity to B04

Member

to B04
said by B04:

So if I catch you in my den with burgular tools and a forklift, you can be prosecuted as if you'd actually loaded up my furniture on the forklift and driven away?

(I'm not being contradictory; I'm actually asking, if anyone knows the legal finesses here.)

-- B
Let me put it this way: Is not the attempt to commit murder just as serious as the success in doing so? That analogy should apply to any crime.
B04
Premium Member
join:2000-10-28

B04

Premium Member

said by Curiosity:

Let me put it this way: Is not the attempt to commit murder just as serious as the success in doing so?
Of course it's not! It's serious to be sure, but in no way "just as serious"! And that scale is reflected in the penal code, as far as I know from my many years of flipping past TV legal dramas.

Speaking of which, isn't it about time someone remade The Paper Chase? I mean, Gilligan's Farking Island, for crying out loud. The New Partridge Family. Oy.

-- B
anthrorules
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join:2003-09-14
Rollinsville, CO

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with loss in revenue and consumer confidence, give the hacker life in prison.

Keizer
I'M Your Huckleberry
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join:2003-01-20

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said by Curiosity:

said by B04:


So if I catch you in my den with burgular tools and a forklift, you can be prosecuted as if you'd actually loaded up my furniture on the forklift and driven away?

(I'm not being contradictory; I'm actually asking, if anyone knows the legal finesses here.)

-- B
Let me put it this way: Is not the attempt to commit murder just as serious as the success in doing so? That analogy should apply to any crime.
I don't agree here at all. Lets take it one step further and say, isn't the thought of killing someone just as bad as doing so? Maybe in Gods eyes, but here on the planet we have different levels of crimes and appropriate punishments (Thank God)

As far as the Lowes hackers actions being considered the electronic equivalent of breaking and entering, that depends! I feel that what they did was the electronic equivalent to breaking and entering into a bank. Afterall, it was a national computer system containing a haven of credit card info. I bet if I broke into the neighbors garage I wouldn't get nine years if caught.

It might just be as simple as the criminals involved being used as an example for others thinking about doing the same type of crime.

Keizer
VirtualLarry
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join:2003-08-01

VirtualLarry to anthrorules

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said by anthrorules:

with loss in revenue and consumer confidence, give the hacker life in prison.
...because corporate profits are so much more important than the life (or lifetime) of a human being... right?

Steve
I know your IP address

join:2001-03-10
Tustin, CA

Steve

said by VirtualLarry:

...because corporate profits are so much more important than the life (or lifetime) of a human being... right?
Basically, yes.

A corporation has rights just like a regular person does, and when those rights are violated, there should be punishment. If I steal from K-Mart, it takes a special kind of elitism to say that this is "lesser" than stealing from an actual person. K-Mart has no money that is not accountable to their shareholders, who are actual persons.

Steve

hpguru
Curb Your Dogma
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join:2002-04-12

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hpguru

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It is pretty obvious that the rights of corporate citizens and their profits are more important than the rights of regular people. Compare the rights of Haliburton with its army of mercenary solders of fortune ((cough)) err ahh - security professionals with the rights of multiplied thousands of dead Iraqis.

markwp2001
Spreadhead
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join:2002-05-25
Long Beach, MS

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said by B04:

Speaking of which, isn't it about time someone remade The Paper Chase? I mean, Gilligan's Farking Island, for crying out loud. The New Partridge Family. Oy.

-- B
OT

The Paper Chase was a great show. Recently saw the movie which predated the show. That was good too.

Steve
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join:2001-03-10
Tustin, CA

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said by hpguru:

It is pretty obvious that the rights of corporate citizens and their profits are more important than the rights of regular people.
That's not the same kind of comparison, as it conflates "foreign policy" with "measures of rights".

That said, I generally agree with you.

Steve
Just Basics
join:2003-06-08
Painter, VA

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According to the article the software enabling the capture of CC information was already installed. This now becomes a crime not only against a corporation but a crime with intent and the means to defraud private individuals.

9 years was far too lenient a sentence and as long as our court systems continue to hand out light sentences for serious crimes this type of crime will continue to increase.

Daniel
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I don't mind the punishments, I mind the imbalance between the punishments in this area vs. other areas. In California there are people getting off on minimal jailtime and probation for attempted murder. So here we have a cracker on a network getting 9 years of actual time while some murdering piece of trash walks the streets.

The priorities are wrong.
B04
Premium Member
join:2000-10-28

B04

Premium Member

said by Daniel:

The priorities are wrong.
Can't get more succinct than that!

-- B
nonymous (banned)
join:2003-09-08
Glendale, AZ

nonymous (banned)

Member

said by B04:

said by Daniel:

The priorities are wrong.
Can't get more succinct than that!

-- B
Yes sentencing is messed up. But if they where trying to steal money and cc info and well not just a prank then jail time. Not just affecting Lowes affect those who could have gotten their credit card stolen.
On CEO's why Martha Stewart and not many many way way worse????
Nine years seems like much as no armed robbery but some time and a long probation with no computer equipment allowed as a part of that probation.
It does seem on a higher profile case a prosecutor goes for the kill lately. Maximum everything a plus to their win record and resume.

Chameleon
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Sparta, IL

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That is what it seems like with anything to do with corporate America.