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turdhat7
join:2001-09-30
Louisville, KY

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turdhat7

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Die P2P(Just a rant from a frustrated net admin)

Die p2p Die !! (Just a rant)

Man, I hope that they shut down all p2p traffic. I have managed large networks before and p2p traffic, the resulting virus infections from their use due to ignorant end users downloading trojans and viruses disguised as music, etc cause more problems than they are worth by far. Insight is doing something to control p2p traffic because if they were not we would all be complaining of slow speed. They do it because if they didn't the snowball effect caused by all the p2p users would grind their network to a halt or close to it..

I have seen an oc12 node over run by unrestrained p2p traffic. Cisco PDLM's (look it up) can be installed and run on the routers to shape p2p traffic if the cpu in the router is big enough to deal with it and whatever normal traffic occurs. They dont need sandvine to do this. I could set it up on all their ubr's system wide in a days time and would be happy to do so for free. If they killed p2p all together we could all have 10 megs down from the drop in traffic. P2P is out of control. and has been for sometime now. Die p2p die !

BeesTea
Internet Janitor
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join:2003-03-08
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BeesTea

Premium Member

Re: Die P2P(Just a rant from a frustrated net admi

I'll second that. I watch over a network of about 65k systems and p2p is easily the largest problem. It's the cause of 75% of the system compromises and the generally poor written code wastes bandwidth like it's going out of style. I wish people would go back to using HTTP and FTP. Hell, even DCC would be easier on the network.

EDIT: I want to add that BT, the current victim of p2p discrimination was the most likely to rectify the p2p problems since it's generally a more direct approach to finding what you're looking for, wasting less bandwidth etc. Sadly, we'll probably never know now.

Cheers,
-BeesT
IGGY9
No Guru Just Here To Help
Premium Member
join:2001-03-30
Chatham, IL

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Re: Die P2P(Just a rant from a frustrated net admin)

Give me a break. P2P is no more than downloading and uploading. So your comment should be kill the internet. Because P2P is nothing more than an application to do what the internet was setup to do. Transfer data. You want to help the network. Ban the infected users - educate them - give them a second chance after said education. Gaming and streaming content can be just as taxing on a network. Should we ban that as well? Should we start burning the books and records to? Another way to look at this - P2P keeps you busy and employed.:D P2P, porn and gaming have helped broadband growth. Like it or not these are the facts. DIE thread DIE!!!!

BeesTea
Internet Janitor
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join:2003-03-08
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BeesTea

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Re: Die P2P(Just a rant from a frustrated net admi

said by IGGY9:

Like it or not these are the facts.
It's pretty clear you don't deal with any of the problems caused by it, nor have you ever studied the algorithms and protocols used in the applications. Data sharing isn't the problem, it's the tool being used to do it.

Besides, if you can throw a fit anytime someone mentions using something besides Windows or something besides software firewalls, surely others can post on their own opinions too.

-BeesT

robbyg627
Premium Member
join:2003-09-14
Bradenton, FL

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Re: Die P2P(Just a rant from a frustrated net admin)

I wish people would go back to using HTTP and FTP. Hell, even DCC would be easier on the network.

I agree with that. I will say that I wouldn't totally do away with p2p but bandwidth regulation is definitely in order.
adz133
join:2002-12-03

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Re: Die P2P(Just a rant from a frustrated net admi

If I bought my bandwidth, it is mine to do with as I please.

That said, if I'm a corporate netadmin... I have the right to do with my network as I please. If that means no P2P (which, If I'm a corporate netadmin, it would) then so be it.

There's two sides to every coin. Let's limit the web to bzipped unicode files. We'd save a ton on bandwidth then!
turdhat7
join:2001-09-30
Louisville, KY

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turdhat7

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Ask yourself, are you a typical user or a network admin ? If you had any idea what is going on at the packet level on large networks such as insights (I used to work there in their TSG btw) most would agree. P2P is a huge issue internet wide. Understand that above 50% of all internet traffic was at one time (may still be) p2p traffic. I have seem more systems comprimised from p2p files sharing than from email, ftp and web combined 10x over. Simple p2p searches with Kazaa etc use tons of bandwidth just to display resutls. I have tested them in a lab setting and it is ridiculous how sloppy their code is. I cant tell you how many times people called support complaining of slow speeds and they had p2p running in the backround with people leaching and they didnt even know it ! Funny at the time. Assholes know that a lot of newbs use p2p because they are perplexed by irc, ftp etc so they put infected files up with file names of new music, movies etc to bait you in and own you. Its a fact. I have ethereal logs from campus networks that would make any admin cringe as they did me at the time when I said to myself, "Oh yea, another 14 hour day playing network janitor" ! It would be greek to most of you. Trust me P2P is your enemy and you dont even know it yet. Irc is the way to go. You want files ? Download irc and go to www.packetnews.com or www.ircspy.com and search for what you want. Been using it for my file needs since before the internet had a browser or pictures. It was all text. Anyone remember the Slip/Unix accounts or trumpet winsock on windows 3.1! Heh
jaymz668
join:2002-03-21
Bloomington, IN

jaymz668

Member

BT is p2p and works perfectly fine. Don't lump the crap with the not so crap.
dinzy
join:2004-11-09
Urbana, IL

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If there are problems due to p2p then the network is not properly designed to meet the need of its users.

Face it people want to use p2p and if you cannot cope with the issues then find a new job. I am sure someone else would like to step in and make good money trying to solve the problems rather than whine about it. You even state yourself that the problem can be solved with the appropriate resources so p2p is going to put money in someone's pocket. Can't be all that bad from thier point of view, can it?
turdhat7
join:2001-09-30
Louisville, KY

turdhat7

Member

Yes the p2p problem can be solved with money. You know what that means ? Your internet bills go up as the isp has to buy more bandwidth to handle it or buy expensive appliances to control it. So those of us that dont use P2p (stealing copyrighted material software) have to pay higher bills because you are greedy ? Gee thanks you tight wad greedy bastages. Go buy the damn cd, game, movie etc. Die p2p Die !

stickstickly
@insightBB.com

stickstickly

Anon

You are an idiot.
adz133
join:2002-12-03

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»eclipse-mirror.jab.fi:6969/

BeesTea
Internet Janitor
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join:2003-03-08
00000

BeesTea

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Look at the total up/down usage on that. A single torrent user, not even a seed, will do that in a few hours with just one pirated album.

Have to face it folks, p2p is 99% piracy, porn, and miscreant files. It's not a secret or conspiracy. Don't blame the ISPs, blame the people using it for those purposes.

-BeesT
adz133
join:2002-12-03

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Man, I'd love to be able to do 40GB up/down in a "few hours".

In any case, there is a lot of merit in that earlier statement saying that the network exists to serve the users' needs.

BeesTea
Internet Janitor
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join:2003-03-08
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BeesTea

Premium Member

Using your own posted speed test, you could pull that down in about 24.5 hours and you're just one user.

The misconception with communication services is that everyone is intended to get maximum capacity 24/7. That's simply not true, it's the same as the national phone system. If everyone in a comm region attempts to use the system at the same time the network falls apart. That's just the technical side, not counting the TOS aspect. People running p2p for piracy are generally running their connection at maximum capacity for the majority of the day. They are not the majority, however they consume the majority of the shared capacity.

The network is not there to serve anyone. It's there to provide a connection based on the conditions set forth by it's owner, the ISP. If a user cannot work within those conditions, or feels those conditions do not agree with them, they're certainly welcome to take their business elsewhere. Trunk-lines and satellite are available to just about every corner of the country, people are more than welcome to make use of them.

Like I said above, it isn't the ISP screwing legitimate p2p users, it's users screwing legitimate p2p users. Manage something bigger than your LAN and you'll see this is simply reality.

-BeesT
adz133
join:2002-12-03

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It would take me 15.4 days to upload that, and good luck getting the ARP's out to download at the same time.

In any case, ISP's know that home users want to use P2P software, and should plan accordingly. My own router is set up to help alleviate problems. I don't game or use P2P much any more, but I still have my router set up to give ARP over everything, games priority http, http over ftp, and ftp over p2p. Obviously this is an oversimplification, but it worked well.

Technologies like sandvine are excellent on paper, and should be implemented to reduce the cost of running an ISP. Limiting what the user can do is the wrong way to do business. Likewise, if an ISP doesn't want people to do something, they should clearly state what is and isn't allowed, and what the consequences for certain actions are.

Please don't come in here and pose as the mightiest administrator ever to grace the globe, saying that the network exists to serve your tastes and not that of its users. Your job is not to make the network perform at its best, but to perform its function best for those who pay you to do it. If this is a corporate network environment, then you are correct in eliminating P2P. If you are an ISP, and your residential customers pay you to maintain a network for them, then you must take into account that they overwhelmingly want to use P2P software.

BeesTea
Internet Janitor
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join:2003-03-08
00000

BeesTea

Premium Member

said by adz133:

It would take me 15.4 days to upload that, and good luck getting the ARP's out to download at the same time.

In any case, ISP's know that home users want to use P2P software, and should plan accordingly. My own router is set up to help alleviate problems. I don't game or use P2P much any more, but I still have my router set up to give ARP over everything, games priority http, http over ftp, and ftp over p2p. Obviously this is an oversimplification, but it worked well.
First, if you prioritise for ARP, you're off in the wrong direction already. ARP is a layer2 protocol, it's used to identify the physical address of your next hop or hosts on your physical segment. You don't need to prioritize it because of downloads. Aside from the fact that the only MAC you would need to ARP for is your gateway, the data you would ARP for would be provided by the frame containing the data you're downloading making an ARP completely unnecessary.

I suspect what you want to be queueing with priority are SYN packets. That's what you send first when sending a request across the network. For uploading to people, at their request of your service, you would prioritize SYN-ACKs, so that you would reply quickly to their SYN. If you're going to play smart guy, at least have your facts straight. Just like your claim that stack adjustments have no affect on network performance, your claim here has no technical truth to it.
said by adz133:

Technologies like sandvine are excellent on paper, and should be implemented to reduce the cost of running an ISP. Limiting what the user can do is the wrong way to do business. Likewise, if an ISP doesn't want people to do something, they should clearly state what is and isn't allowed, and what the consequences for certain actions are.
The ISP needs to tell users not to use it's service to break the law? Take a look at your TOS, I'm sure it's covered. If that's not good enough, how about federal law, it's definitely covered there.
said by adz133:

Please don't come in here and pose as the mightiest administrator ever to grace the globe, saying that the network exists to serve your tastes and not that of its users. Your job is not to make the network perform at its best, but to perform its function best for those who pay you to do it. If this is a corporate network environment, then you are correct in eliminating P2P. If you are an ISP, and your residential customers pay you to maintain a network for them, then you must take into account that they overwhelmingly want to use P2P software.
I'm not posing as anyone but myself. I'm sorry that you can't face the reality of p2p abuse. Maybe in your alternate reality where all the p2p traffic is the distribution of OSI friendly licenced software you can make sure it gets the friendly welcome you think it should. In the meantime, the rest of the people who manage commercial networks are going to have to deal with the problems it causes like bandwidth exhaustion and increased staffing due to the liabilities of the DMCA and copyright laws. Again, don't blame the ISP, blame the users ruining it for the others.

-BeesT

MHaysley
@insightBB.com

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Re: Die P2P(Just a rant from a frustrated net admin)

Damn Straight, Its People Like Them That Think They Can Do Anything They Want. People Creating These Big Servers On Games And p2p Is The Cause Of Why People See The Speeds Drop Like Shit And Then They Go "I Payed For It So I Can Do Whatever I Want With My Speed" And All This When They Don't Give A Shit Of What They Are Doing To Other Peoples Speeds. I Really Hope That Insight Completely Blocks All p2p And Then We Will Be Seeing What WE PAYED FOR.
adz133
join:2002-12-03

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Re: Die P2P(Just a rant from a frustrated net admi

Excuse my use of ARP vs. ACK. I posted on my way out the door without much concern for acronyms.

Stack tweaks provide gains within the margin of error, mainly because the default stack settings aren't that bad out the door.

Don't damn the whole for works of the individual. P2P users make up one sphere of web users. Pirates make up one sphere of web users. The pirate sphere fits into the P2P sphere, not the other way around. I'm not saying it isn't a snug fit, but it is wholly unfair to condemn by association.

We've heard your argument and you've heard ours. There really isn't much to do here as both sides are completely powerless.

BeesTea
Internet Janitor
Premium Member
join:2003-03-08
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BeesTea

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said by adz133:

Don't damn the whole for works of the individual. P2P users make up one sphere of web users. Pirates make up one sphere of web users. The pirate sphere fits into the P2P sphere, not the other way around. I'm not saying it isn't a snug fit, but it is wholly unfair to condemn by association.
I agree that it's completely unfair to the normal user. But that's exactly the problem. The pirate sphere is the majority of the p2p sphere, and that sphere has caused the p2p sphere to exhaust the networks they are used on. It is the actions of these people that is the real problem. They are the ones treating the rest of the network unfairly.

The actions being implemented by ISPs are damage control in an effort to make the network perform in a fashion that is fair to everyone. Not just the ones who believe their monthly broadband fee includes exception to copyright law.

Does it suck for people who have legitimate claim to p2p, yes it does. Does it suck to the droves of people running p2p apps for nefarious reasons, I sure hope so. Sadly, the people who are at a loss for legitimate p2p use are greatly outnumbered by those without.

-BeesT
Beetle_B
join:2004-12-29

Beetle_B

Member

"Does it suck for people who have legitimate claim to p2p, yes it does. Does it suck to the droves of people running p2p apps for nefarious reasons, I sure hope so. Sadly, the people who are at a loss for legitimate p2p use are greatly outnumbered by those without."

All that is being asked is that Insight state up front that they may limit p2p usage.

Yes, breaking the law is covered in the TOS. But if they're going to restrict me from doing something which is not breaking the law, then I would consider it bad business practice not to let me know what I will or will not get by signing up.

If p2p overall truly is bad for the network/ISP, by all means ban it outright. Or for heavy users. Just be open about it.
turdhat7
join:2001-09-30
Louisville, KY

turdhat7

Member

Legitimate claim to P2P. Hah ! Yes all three of you.
turdhat7

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"All that is being asked is that Insight state up front that they may limit p2p usage." Ahh but they do my boy. Read the terms of service. Here is the section and a link:

»www.insightbb.com/terms_ ··· fication

Insight may also, at any time and in its sole discretion, without notice, change, add to or remove portions of the Service (including, without limitation, content, functionality, hours of availability, equipment requirements, speed, upstream and downstream limitations, Service features, storage capacity, and protocol filtering) and/or institute or otherwise change fees and charges for the Service. If Customer is dissatisfied with the Service after such changes, Customer's only right and remedy is to cancel this Agreement as stated under the caption "Termination of the Service" below. The only right and remedy for Users that are dissatisfied with Service changes is to cease using the Service.

Something else you P2P junkies that download pirate programs might want to keep in mind. Your name could end up in a DMCA email to insightbb if your caught which at that time Insight can terminate your connection for good and you know the rest.