Cox and AT&T Join the Tiered Party

Who has broadband just for email anyway??? Know what will happen? The crummy 1500/128 that I'm paying ATTBI almost $50 a month for will be capped lower...for about the same price. It's amazing that technology improves, yet consumers get a screw job done.

Ah, to be a monopolist or oligopolist. To rape and pillage $$$, to have customers as slaves, and to have zero accountability.

Life is Good.

LOL ! It is the american way! Pay more and get Less !
No corruption here, the government is clean ;>). Doesn't like the law ? Have it changed or amend it. Doesnt like the election result ? overturned it! Doesn't want to pay taxes? get an exemption, or offshore account. GE and Enron did not pay taxes and get over $1 Billion refund.
You've just got to love it!
Ofcourse it helps if you own NBC (GE) and Time/CNN to tell the masses all of this doesnt matter since we have a war going on.

said by ramones74:

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It's amazing that technology improves, yet consumers get a screw job done.

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I beg to differ, it's not amazing at all- it's cable, a phenomenon unto itself. Cable defies all the laws of customer satisfaction, economics and logic yet they manage to stay in business...

While video technologies such as compression and fiber optics have advanced over the past two decades and decreased the initial cost and maintenance of video services, cable companies have done nothing but increase the rates and rarely ever increase their service offering.

Same thing with cable modems; although the technology is advancing in the field of cable modems which would allow these cable companies to actually deal with the bandwidth issues, they'd rather squat on older technology and milk every last cent they can out of us before the government steps in and regulates them next decade!

Meanwhile, they're squatting on their struggling infrastructure running up multi-billion dollar debts... Personally, I don't know how they do this, considering they so blatantly rip off the consumer... but someone has to pay! guess who? I can give you a clue, it's not the CEOs of Comcast, Adelphia et.al.

I think it's amusing that some people go so far as to STEAL cable. If my local cable company wrote me a check every month to use their crappy service, I would still refuse.

People need to wake up and hit the cable companies where it hurts-- in their pocket. As long as people sit around complacently while these huge corporations rip you off, they're never going to stop. Disconnect your cable, get DirecTV or DISH, and get DSL! The time is now!

Albeit, the DSL and phone companies may not be innocent, but at least they don't advertise how they're going to rip you off and expect you to stay a customer. That's downright insulting!

TZi said:
If my local cable company wrote me a check every month to use their crappy service, I would still refuse.
---------

Yeah, right!

said by Go Broadband:
Yeah, right!

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No, really. What's the point of having a service that you can't reliably use during peak hours. When I need to log onto the university's UNIX server to finish a semester-long project, check mail or conduct business on the internet, having an unreliable service simply won't cut it.

So, even if they paid me, it still wouldn't be worth it because I wouldn't be able to do what needs to be done (
I'm basing this assumption on the service levels I've experience in Miami, FL). Not to mention the fact that I don't like my packets being broadcast (no matter how encrypted the cableco says they are) over my entire node.

Think of it this way... If you had the option of renting a car that gets you to work reliably 99% of the time versus getting paid to drive to work in a car that habitually breaks down during rush hour, which would you choose? I can't speak for you anyone else, but I'd prefer to actually get where I'm going rather than save a buck.

You get what you pay for ultimately. Cable may be cheaper here and there, but there is no such thing as a free lunch and you ultimately end up paying for it either by price or service quality. In cable's case, they'd rather sacrifice service to keep prices down.

yeah i agree dude my cable company cox is over here screwing me i can get a good connection once in a while but not reliably like you say....effing cable companies
[text was edited by moderator]

     I've been cableless for six months now. They've sent me offers every month to sign back up, I write HA HA HA! on letter and send it back, at their expense. I, for one, have had it with the cable monopolies.
     I wrote to the county commissioner to complain, as directed on my last cable bill and the county told me they have no power over the cable companies and I was to write to the FCC. So I did and guess what? The FCC said they don't have any power over the cable companies and I should write to the county to complain.
     So there you have it, there's nobody to regulate them so they will do as they please: raise rates, offer crappy service and cap your download!
     So a big HA HA HA to all you cable subscribers!

LOL tZi,

I did cancel my Cox cable tv services over a year ago and went for the dish network. Heck, every time the wind blew, my cable tv went out. With the dish network i have a very nice picture and no down time. The only time I have to call dish is when I need to change my service. And they change it fast, usually with 10 minutes.

I just cancelled Cox HSI as my dsl is up and running at 1200+ down and 300+ up. Cox was really sucking for me. Lousy up and down pings and speed, and sometimes no connection at all. Yeah, I pay $50 a month now, but speed and pings are consistent and my connection is always there so far.

The cable companies will always have a monopoly in areas where the dsl providers give poor or no service, or for those who are too far from the CO, or on bad copper, but those of us who do have a good second choice can send cable packing.

Now if OOL or WOW were in my area I may be singing a different tune, but Cox, heh.

Ah you're lucky! I switched to DISH network too, but I can't switch to DSL 'cause I'm too far from the CO

Wow, you people are lucky with DISH. I used to work for em a few yaers back, and they sure were scumbags (to both customers and employees). Yeah, programming changes were quick though. Usually it would pop up on the person's TV while they were still on the phone. I may have a position with ATT soon, so I can get crummy cable and broadband for next to nothing.

Thats something Cox is good at... Raising prices

But then again, we'll have to wait and see.. If they try to charge us more money for what we pay now, or change the speed, you get get them for the bait and switch crap...

All I can say is .. ATT .. go and ... take a leap

This is being touted for the AOL dialup newbie who refuses to pay $50 for broadband, so for $20 they'll get slow, crappy 24/7 broadband instead of their current slow, crappy log on dialup they have now. After they've snared a decent percentage, they'll start hiking everyone's rates.

I don't know about $20. They already charge $23.90 for dialup. I know some of you have cable modem service for not much more than that, but don't look for a nationwide pricing at $29.95 at your 1.5Mbps ever. Any time they have something nationwide, it costs them money. They don't have as much control to raise prices when they are nationwide. That's why basic cable rates go up much faster than anything else(at least in the cities with crappy cable deals)

Ok you can have your tiered system but must conform to this.

1) A simple way to check on amount left before hit the data download cap. Like a email etc.

2) A fix minum not maximum transfer rate at any time of the day. If not met, then some payback on that. Nothing below 2000/300.

3) Drop rental charge on modems.

4) Reasonable rates. {Hah on this on! }

5) For x amount have the option of hosting a server.

6) Min low packet loss between you and where they tie into the net. A level, if exceded, user gets a payback.

7) For areas that are dead more than up a precentage payback for those user with out the user requesting it.

8) Minumn of let say two IP per household instead of one. Or rental on a router. But both IP would be included under the data transfer limit. They have account so why not tie a IP also to each one? { I do understand the affects of dynamic Ip addressing and only so much to go around }

9) If you have something huge like a distro you could request a overnight 8 hours instead of 2 hours to download the item(s). Or a cost of x amount per mb added like a pay per view item.

10) A way to make it worth my wild to save on bandwidth. Like a account. A percentage of what I dont use could be added to next month. But only good for so long. Like six months. Kind of like Frequent flyer miles.

I know I missed something in the list. But have fun thinking up other entries guys!

The best way is to save bandwidth is to makes it worth someone's effort to save.

Also I though if you went too far they just started to charge a user business rates?
[text was edited by author 2002-04-11 18:52:59]

said by Nighttime:

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Ok you can have your tiered system but must conform to this.

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That sounds like quite a plausible system, however you must remember that that system is logical and therefore won't work in the cable industry.

Here's a simple way to calculate the service you can expect to receive from the cable company.

[MAXIMUM AMOUNT CHARGEABLE BY LAW (AVOIDING LAWSUIT)] - [MINIMUM OVERHEAD (MINIMUM SERVICE LEVEL LEGALLY REQUIRED)] = YOUR MONTHLY RATE + GOUGED RENTAL PRICES + GOUGED TECH INSTALLS + RANDOM QUESTIONABLE MONTHLY CHARGES.

Then factor in:

[YOUR MONTHLY RATE] * 7%/[YEAR] = YOUR FUTURE MONTHLY RATE + ANY NEW LEGAL OPPORTUNITIES THEY CABLE COMPANY HAS TO ADD ADJACENT CHARGES AND/OR OTHERWISE REDUCE THEIR SERVICE TO YOU

PS You could also calculate in the cost of unusable services or losses incurred due to the inability to use the service and/or loss of data, but the cable companies are one step ahead of you and they've already contractually excluded themselves from such liabilities. It sure is comforting to know their legal department is thinking ahead for the customer =). Definitely a company with a customer service policy that I want to do business with!

Forgot to put in the line only valid in the TwiliteZone!

People don't look for nationwide policies. Nothing with cable is nationwide. That's why they're a rippoff. Every cable district will have different caps and different prices structures. I mean do you ever hear Time Warner people mention my $85/month price for cable modems for residential customer. If your city has a great cable deal you will always get a good deal no matter what. My city of course has the worst cable deal in the nation, thus they're really going to ratchet up the prices for us. My point is that all you people speculating on caps and prices, and looking for press statements for nationwide policies are going to be dissappointed. They don't want you to know that everybody gets a different deal. This is just like the basic cable rates.

how about getting cable internet to everyone first..then worry about tiered plans and shit...i live in a well populated town in the upper middle class and still have no broadband....cant be more then 20 minutes from the biggest city in CT..

hahaha-F'ing cable companies

said by 2farfromCO:

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Nothing with cable is nationwide.

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Nothing, of course except for their seemingly universal reputation over-charging for unreliable service (TV or data). We can all expect that to be a nationwide policy eternally...

Well the folks in Wayne, Michigan who have WideOpenWest cable sure aren't getting overcharged. Their basic cable is $27.95(and this has more channels than Dish AT100), digital cable is under $35(analog in my city is $37.14), and digital cable with all the movie channels(and they have more than anybody else by far) is under $65. They will be getting cable modems at OOL speeds for like $30 too. These are of course the same people that can get Comcast for $21.95 for basic cable. I couldn't pay people enough money for them to take satellite over cable in these cities.

You are wrong. Wideopen west basic cable is around $32 a month and Digital cable is around $46 or so because I currently have the basic cable from them. The $30 package is 300/100 and you have to subscribe to digital cable. The $35 package is 1.5/500 and you have to subscribe to digital cable. At least have facts when you whine, you whine and lie simultaneously to push your agenda.

PS Nobody cares about your cable tv rates in Farmington Hills. Get over it.

I called the WOW office and they said that digital basic is only $7.48 more if you just say that you want to be a hotbox customer. That would make your digital cable under $40/month. That's about $2 more than our analog, and your digital has way more stations(as does your analog of course). $35 for a full service cable modem!!! That's $10/month less than ours. You want to talk about no TV penalties??? Cable modems in my city are $85/month if you don't have cable TV.
Look, my city bribed Americast worse than Salt Lake City bribed the IOC to get the Olympics, and I now know why. I think a $50,000 bribe on behalf of 4 cities would be a steal with the cable deal your city has. Not to mention the counter-deals you get from Comcast($21.95/month basic service if your threaten to leave). They have to fend off WOW before they can even think about satellite.

Yes but to be a hotbox customer you have to buy a premium channel which costs $10. So lets add $32 +$10+$8, thats $50 total without taxes. I'm also quoting you $32 without taxes and franchise fees. With taxes and fees, I pay $36 and change. The plan you are talking about will cost around $55 with taxes and fees plus $35 with internet is around $92. It's not as cheap as you think.

Well, in Farmington Hills, that would be almost $110.
$35.25+12.95+10+44.5= $107.84. Why are we always more?? I can tell you why. Time Warner's overhead is far greater than anybody else's in the Metro Detroit area. They only have 4 cities, therefore any businessman with half a brain will tell you that if you have 10,000 customers your fixed costs will be far greater(per customer) than if you have 20,000. Whose fault is it though? They bought our city. They shouldn't be able to pass on their mistake just because they're a monopoly. This should really piss off any true Republican whose core beliefs are accountability and responsibility above all else. They should be held accountable for their mistake. There is no free market to make them do that.

Really? Take a look at their website:
follow this link, then click on "rate card".
»www.wideopenwest.com/00_ ··· gan.html

Basic Service "varies" but we'll use your figure of $27.95
Digital Basic Tier $14.95
HBO Mulitplex $14.95
CineMAX Multiplex $ 8.95
Showtime/TMC $11.95
STARZ!/Encore $ 9.95
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Total $88.70
+ Taxes & Franchise ~$10.00 (estimated I don't know what taxes are in MI)
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$98.70

Not to mention $9.95 for each additional receiver you want.

Would your friends in Wayne, still be willing to fork over ~100 bucks to the cable company if they knew they could get everything that WOW offers and more from DirecTV for $85/mo + all the available PPV and sports subscriptions? That's assuming you take DirecTV's published rates. Most people who sign up for new service get special deals that offer everything except the regional sports networks for ~$55/mo. Plus, who wants to pay $10 more to WOW per month just to have a TV in another room. At least with DirecTV you can get your equipment for practically free and only pay 4.99 for each additional room.

100 - 55 = $45 more that you would pay for cable in MI. Now, how can you argue that cable companies aren't ripping us off. $45 dollars is hefty premium to pay for cable especially when cable subscribers are up in arms over a 5 dollar rate hike for their broadband service...

Satellite has a distinct advantage over cable; once they've generated enough revenue to keep their satellites in the sky, each new customer essentially costs them nothing save the advertising and equipment subsidies they spend to get you in. This is compared to cable, where each and every outlet they service and mile of cable they lay costs them more and more to maintain. Not to mention the fact that one single cable plant will never be able to match DirecTV in terms of revenue. So its basically economies of scale. Satellite will always be cheaper because they reach the maximum number of people with the least amount of overhead-per-subscriber. PERIOD.

Right now, all you have to do is say that you want to be a hotbox customer, and all those digital charges are cut in half. Thus it's:
Basic: $27.95
Digital basic: $7.48
HBO $7.48
Cinemax $4.98
Showtime $5.98
Starz $4.98
Total price of $58.85. Even if your city gets charged $32.95 like that poster above, it only comes to $62.85 which is insane. I couldn't pay people enough money to take a satellite at those rates. Those digital rates are correct I can confirm those, and yes there is a city that has their analog basic rate of $32.95. I guess I was wrong when I said it was Wayne. Anyways, those cable modem rates are insane.

oh yeah, those extra boxes are $4.98 if you are a hotbox customer.

Btw, that $27.95 was the old price. WOW just raised prices $3 a month last month.

Our basic cable rates were $27.95 some time in Clinton's first term. Time Warner's rates today are $37.14(after taxes and fees). I was told that $27.95 included taxes though. They may have been wrong about that.

Oh all this info is from a link on the page your listed above.

RESTATED, BASIC RULE OF ECONOMICS:
Satellite will always be cheaper because they reach the maximum number of people with the least amount of overhead-per-subscriber.

Hot-Box and other supposed special deals from the cable company are no doubt a scheme to get you sucked in. In reality, they ultimately ended paying mor per subscriber than DirecTV. If not now, eventually that higher cost will be passed on to you the subscriber in terms of sacrificed service quality or hiked rates. Either that, or the cable company racks of billions of dollars of debt.

There are two cable companies here too, three in some areas. BellSouth FTTH, AT&T and Optel in Miami Lakes. Still the rates are insane and the service crappy from all but BellSouth (which has very limited coverage).

I'm surprised you guys in MI aren't a fan of DirecTV considering that it's owned by GM (for the moment anyhow), which I imagine has a huge presence in Michigan!

I'm not exactly a "fan" of DirecTV because I'm a DishNetwork retailer. I already have a DishNetwork system, in my apartment.

just like what i said.. i am happy with my 1.2/108 up DSLine .. my last speed test was 1224/106 hell that is fine be me..i see alot of people jumping over to DSL... at work every1 said that if thay do it thay will go DSL..

just my 2 cents

if you are paying for crappy service
if you pay for tiered service
if you pay ,for cable or dsl service
then you can share the blame for the poor service you get
only two things in life for sure
dying and paying taxes

I am sure glad I have good friends who are highly placed
computer systems engineers. Back when I was deciding between cable and DSL, I am lucky to have a choice.
These engineers told me bandwidth was going to become
a issue in cable provided broadband. They where really
PO'ed at the way AT&T was not telling the whole story in
their rush to corral as many subscribers as possible.
They spelled out to me most of the issues I have been
reading in these forums. I went with a DSL, at least I
have My own phone line back to the "switch" bandwidth
wise what happens after that isn't my problem. If you have a choice go with a DSL. It's a real bummer the providers
of DSL lines have not really addressed the limited range
a DSL connection is available from the main switch.

I feel this is a moot point.

Ask anyone that had Earthlink in Chicago, New York, or California these past months.

The internet is one big shared resource - with cable, you share the bandwidth in the access point. With DSL, you share it on the transport.

With cable, they can add an additional channel on the trunk in a week or so - with DSL, they have to get a whole new transport line. Working in the telecom industry, I can tell you that it typically takes months to do this.

Now, I'm not saying that cable is better than DSL. It varies by provider, area, and so on.

I would, however, suggest that we avoid pointing one out over the other. In Chicago, my DSL went from 1.2Mbps to 100kbps over-night for 3 months.

My cable is at 1.4MBps with no slow-downs.

First and foremost, no one published rates from what I could see. Therefore, it would be the best business decision to give you what you got at what you're paying for, or at least cap at what it should be.

If you're paying $39/month for "up to" 1.5MBps, then they'll probably cap at that.

Then, looking at the technical side, they may offer a 2.0 or 2.5 MBps service on a NEW channel for a higher price. This way, they can put less of the 2.5 service users per channel, and they will in no way interfere with the 1.5MBps users.

Reverse the same for the E-Mail customers. Give them, say, 256k for $20/month. Faster than dial-up and good for most users. With this, they will probably make yet another channel for the low-speed users.

I have faith with AT&T here in Chicago for these reasons:

1) My speed still hits 1.4MBps at peak times;

2) RCN is available for cable modem services - They offer a 756k cap for the same price as AT&T, so AT&T charging more for less would not be good for business.

3) They have been good to me before I moved and went to DSL, and they are good to me now.

I had cable for a while, then switched to DSL last May when I moved, and am moving back to cable because I can not stand the issues with EL/MS and if I have a problem, I do not want to deal with several different companies to resolve it.

I only had one issue with AT&T since it was installed and it was resolved in less than 4 hours. I could never get that turn-around time on my DSL.

Cheers!

I suppose OOL will be the next provider to screw over their customers as they are the last decent provider in america.

dvd536 I sure hope OOL does not do anything different. Then there will be no good high speed internet out there really for good money. Plus if i ever move there i could get it and i hope nothing happens.

If you think of it this way, it's not all bad:

The bandwidth hogs pay more for their connection, and thus are more considerate of the amount of bandwidth they use. No more dumbasses with kazaa open 24/7 and downloaded gigs of music and movies so that everyone else has to deal with high pings and/or slower speeds. They'll be more carefull when they have to pay out the nose. As for those e-mail and surfer people that might pay $30...that's fine, they'll help our service improve as well and not use any bandwidth while they're at it.

I'm all for tiered pricing. It might even IMPROVE speeds, in that you can have 3000/256 or whatever, but you just can't exceed a bandwidth limit. Sounds fine to me and it should be music to any gamer's ears.

Seriously! B and S!

Pretty simple to predict here. Consumer going to get in back-end again.

They'll start with "tier's" basically, paying more for what you have NOW because it's a PRO service compared to the BASIC service that will cost what you pay NOW. Get that??

Yea. Exactly.

1.5/384 (the closest thing to a "true" broadband line) is some of the fastest speeds avail (DSL and cable [except OOL god bless 'em, can't get em]). I just can't see a mad rush for ISP's to start banging out 2.1/1.5 service. Cable can't PERIOD because of their systems, and DSL (very capable of) why the hell would they?! They can get you to pay 79 - 99 -109 etc for 1.5/384 why offer you more? They're just going to offer a crappy say 256/90 (Verizon anyone??) for what your paying now.

Maybe this won't happen rigth away, but come on. Just look at the way they all jumped on the bandwagon all at once. We know better guys!!

And just as a side note - about the peak/offpeak idea. Oh yea, just like cellphone's. Remember when PEAK was 9-5, then 8-6, then 7-7, now what? it's 6-9 on most systems. Oh yea, but hey!! the number of free minutes OFF peak has gone WAY up!! Guess what!? Now we can get 7millon minutes between the hours of 10pm and 5am M-F? WTF? BAD IDEA.

Basically - anything with the word, capped, tierd, pro, basic, residential, etc. = > BEND OVER.

And further and further over too.. but since they're all nice, they'll give it to us slow.. an inch at a time, and before you know it.. well you get the idea..

Enjoy!!

(p.s.s - I'd rather get you off my network in half the time at 2x the bandwidth then keep you around at 200k for 30 minutes.)

said by aitech:

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.. but since they're all nice, they'll give it to us slow.. an inch at a time, and before you know it.. well you get the idea..

Enjoy!!

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Hey dude, you seem to be awfully familiar with this move, wazzup wit dat?!

We've been in it long enough... you should know...

The cable companies can do what they want because they have a limited monopoly in the areas they serve. Sure, you might be able to get a dish. But what if you live in an apartment, condo, or home where the homeowners association forbids it? You're stuck.

However, that said, most of us (and don't beat me up if you don't) have a free choice, to one degree or another. We can either have cable TV or a dish TV, a cable ISP or DSL ISP. The free market system WILL dictate the market. The less expensive providers who provide better bandwidth will set the standard, because the market will gravitate toward them.

As a Roadrunner subscriber I am generally very happy with their service. Time Warner has spent a great deal of money upgrading their cable in my area. The load sharing routers (not in everyone's area) used were designed by Cisco specifically for the purpose of a cable ISP and help ensure fast reliable service. I guess my question is, how much less could I be paying for it if there was free competition. How much better or faster would my service be if there were cable companies competing for my business?

I pay less now for long distance then I did 15 or even 20 years ago, because the government allowed for competition. Instead of $.25 per minute, I pay $.045 per minute. How much would my cable service be if there truly were free competition?

Just my two cents... (or in the case of Roadrunner, $50.00 and limited bandwidth )

Ken

Welcome to DSLR!

Not to mention those of us who live in cities in which 2 or 3 cable carries offer cable modem service over their own lines.

Being in an RCN served area, I can tell you that AT&T BI is on top of the game out here.

Speeds are awesome, up-time is fantastic, and no issues.

I think it all depends on if they have room to be sloppy and yucky. I doubt that I will see a cap in Chicago.

We may see some new plans that offer less speed for less money and vice versa, but with RCN on the tails of AT&T, I doubt AT&T will do much to screw themselves over.

When @Home went belly up, ATT created their own ISP and moved us over up here in CT. At that time, they capped us at 1500/128 D/U Before, I was getting speeds over 5000 at times, both D/U. I now get close to max except during peak times, when I get about 600-700 D.
I think that ATT will cap all at this level, since they may be talking about the uncapped lines that ATT services.
Take a look at some of the speed reports, and you will see what I mean.

K

Just checked my speeds, and I'm getting 3263 down and 278 up!!

i hope they just cap my download speed and leave my upload at 278

I can't quite figure out what you cable consumers are after. I'm kinda of on the outside looking in because I pay about $100 bucks a month for about 100 hours of 128kbps of ISDN connectivity. (no DSL in my hood) However, I have the best ISP around, so I am happy paying the $100.00.

ISP's (even cable ISP's) need to have backbone connectivity to the internet (that's redundant isn't it?). Backbone is usually purchased based on the size if the pipe. You need a pair of T1's? T3's? OC3's? Well, lets get you a contract. Do you want those tiered or burstable?

So, do any of you read Boardwatch? Currently, backbone prices for part of a DS3 are around $500.00 per megabit. UUnet charges about $650.00, Sprint $600.00, Genuity $550.00 Tier II providers are getting down around $350.00 per megabit. (Of course if you buy a whole pipe from the big boys the price begins to come down to about $350.00 - $400.00 per megabit).

So my question is, are you guys saying that you don't want your speed capped but you don't mind if they limit the amount of data you can move in a month? Are you just asking for truth in advertising? Or are you demanding an unlimited throughput at better than T1 speeds for less than $50.00 a month with 7x24 tech support with no service interruptions?

If you are looking for the "better-than-T1-speeds-for-50-a-month", will you please help me out here. Can you do the math to show me how it works? My calculations indicate that if I were lucky enough to have a 2 megabit connection, I could potentially download $700.00 worth of data over the course of a month. That makes for a poor business model. The cable companies could lose 1 years revenue on me in just one month. I know the first respondent will say, "I don't download that much in a month, why should I be limited?" I'm sure you don't, but how do we corral the folks who are downloading that much in a month?

If not (and remember, nobody hates the cable companies more than me) lets start attacking the BB providers for the high price of their connectivity. Once that comes down we can attack the Cable companies and see of they can actually improve the product they are selling.