Daemon Premium Member join:2003-06-29 Washington, DC |
Daemon
Premium Member
2004-Sep-28 4:17 pm
i'd like to see yahoo, espn, and microsoftSo far, all of the stats I've seen have been /., ars technica, and other geek oriented, OSS supportive sites.
A site like neowin, known for windows fan boys would be interesting, as would a large general interest site like yahoo or espn. | |
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| Mike Mod join:2000-09-17 Pittsburgh, PA |
Mike
Mod
2004-Sep-28 4:22 pm
Re: i'd like to see yahoo, espn, and microsoftYou have to start somewhere..... | |
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| | Daemon Premium Member join:2003-06-29 Washington, DC |
Daemon
Premium Member
2004-Sep-28 6:50 pm
Re: i'd like to see yahoo, espn, and microsoftsaid by Mike: You have to start somewhere.....
I get your point, but still. Inaccurate sampling doesn't prove anything anyway, so we might as well ignore the 'mozilla surge' | |
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| sporkmedrop the crantini and move it, sister MVM join:2000-07-01 Morristown, NJ
1 recommendation |
to Daemon
said by Daemon: So far, all of the stats I've seen have been /., ars technica, and other geek oriented, OSS supportive sites.
Where's BBR's browser breakdown? | |
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| | statestress magnet Mod join:2002-02-08 Purgatory |
state
Mod
2004-Sep-28 6:29 pm
Re: i'd like to see yahoo, espn, and microsoftWouldn't mind seeing that myself. | |
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| | Mike Mod join:2000-09-17 Pittsburgh, PA |
to sporkme
fine... give it a day. | |
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fire100 Premium Member join:2001-11-21 Twin Lake, MI |
fire100
Premium Member
2004-Sep-28 4:18 pm
More Linux Users?I think this might be tied to more of the techy people moving over to Linux, which in Linux you generally use a Mozilla based browser. | |
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| justin..needs sleep Mod join:1999-05-28 2031 |
justin
Mod
2004-Sep-28 4:39 pm
Re: More Linux Users?no i don't think linux desktop share has improved by more than a percentage point in that time. | |
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antwanpLovably Pompous Premium Member join:2002-05-14 Cedar Hill, TX |
antwanp
Premium Member
2004-Sep-28 4:19 pm
Browser TrendAnd so the trend continues. This is sure to piss the people who want Firefox to reamain small off! I don't know why though, it is a better browser. IE 6 on SP2 comes very close though.
-Antwan L. | |
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| nixenRockin' the Boxen Premium Member join:2002-10-04 Alexandria, VA |
nixen
Premium Member
2004-Sep-28 4:35 pm
Re: Browser Trendsaid by antwanp: IE 6 on SP2 comes very close though.
Not if you're a Web Designer, it doesn't. IE's about 5 years behind on standards compliance. -tom | |
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| | BeesTeaInternet Janitor Premium Member join:2003-03-08 00000 |
BeesTea
Premium Member
2004-Sep-28 5:19 pm
Re: Browser Trendsaid by nixen:
Not if you're a Web Designer, it doesn't. IE's about 5 years behind on standards compliance.
-tom
Sad but true, here's a whole page of things that IE does terribly. » www.phoenity.com/newtedge/-BeesT | |
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GreatJust what web developers need. More browser fragmentation.
I wish these companies would just stick to standards, regardless of the branding of the browser.
bah. | |
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| nil
join:2000-11-27 |
Re: Greater.. web developers worth a damn code to a standard which every browser ought to interpret. | |
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Re: Greatsaid by nil: er.. web developers worth a damn code to a standard which every browser ought to interpret.
er...nice er...but er...why er...do er...browsers er...not all er...follow er...standards. er. Note: You said "ought to interpret" | |
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| | | nil
join:2000-11-27 |
Re: Greatsaid by TheMadSwede:
er...nice er...but er...why er...do er...browsers er...not all er...follow er...standards.
er.
That's cute. Anyway back on topic, I think you'll be hard pressed to find a browser that offends more than IE when it comes to following standards. | |
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Re: Greatsaid by nil:
said by TheMadSwede:
er...nice er...but er...why er...do er...browsers er...not all er...follow er...standards.
er.
That's cute.
Anyway back on topic, I think you'll be hard pressed to find a browser that offends more than IE when it comes to following standards.
Thanks. If you think I'm claiming that IE is compliant, I'm not. But I am saying that browser compliance doesn't mean a lick to users; they want their browser to work. The more browsers the users use, the more browsers we need to develop for -- that is, until all browsers only comply with uniform standards. Since all browsers don't comply with uniform standards, it's a pain in the rear. Anyhow, I must not have done a good job of 'splaining myself, but my complaint is against browsers that don't comply, all the while recognizing that the #1 browser that people use does not comply, but still must be developed for because it's the #1 browser that people use. Whether or not IE is compliant is irrelevant. People use it, you have to consider it. | |
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| | | | | KoolMoeAw Man Premium Member join:2001-02-14 Annapolis, MD |
KoolMoe
Premium Member
2004-Sep-28 8:42 pm
Re: GreatOr... maybe if all designers made all their pages standards compliant so almost every site on the net wouldn't render correctly in IE - perhaps MS would finally be forced to get their act together and abide by the standards? Sure, lots of folks would be mad for a few weeks, but I suspect most would finally switch to a complaint browser once enough sites replied to their rants with 'use a complaint browser'. Boy, that would scare MS poopless... KM | |
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| | | | | | Combat ChuckToo Many Cannibals Premium Member join:2001-11-29 Verona, PA |
Re: Greatsaid by KoolMoe: Or... maybe if all designers made all their pages standards compliant so almost every site on the net wouldn't render correctly in IE - perhaps MS would finally be forced to get their act together and abide by the standards?
Here's the deal: -from my experience IE will render pertty much everything, compliant or non-compliant -"compliant" browsers( by which I mean non-ie because many of the "compliant" browsers aren't actually fully compliant) render varing levels of non-compliant code. I've been asking for about a year now, why is a browser that vomits when digesting non-compliant code better than one that handles it seamlessly? I'll answer for you it's not. And I guarantee that the things that IE does not comply to would be added fairly quickly if webmasters started using them. IE does not write non-compliant html; webmasters do. Lets place the blame where it is due. | |
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| | | | | | | justin..needs sleep Mod join:1999-05-28 2031 Billion BiPAC 7800N Apple AirPort Extreme (2011)
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justin
Mod
2004-Sep-28 10:09 pm
Re: GreatIE has a number of outright html rendering bugs - where it does the wrong thing with the right html. the workarounds have been there for so long that people forget they are workarounds and assume that is just the way it should be.
as for browsers that try to do the right thing with bad html, yes, sure, but I'd prefer the browser made it clear that it was guessing. That isn't "vomit", that is promoting standards compliance. IE places equal emphasis on bad code as good code - to IE, there are just two (or more) ways to do the same thing.
html has to be unusually broken now to cause opera or firefox to not display anything useful vs IE displaying a good page. The list of sites that are unusable without IE are down to a vanishingly small percentage. | |
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| | | | | | | TechyDad Premium Member join:2001-07-13 USA |
to Combat Chuck
said by Combat Chuck: Here's the deal: -from my experience IE will render pertty much everything, compliant or non-compliant -"compliant" browsers( by which I mean non-ie because many of the "compliant" browsers aren't actually fully compliant) render varing levels of non-compliant code.
The problem is that IE doesn't support a lot of code that is standard. For example, according to standards, any element can utilize the hover pseudo-class. This can allow you to create roll over effects without the use of any JavaScript. Unfortunately, Internet Explorer only supports :hover on links. This means that developers have to resort to JavaScript to support IE. | |
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to KoolMoe
said by KoolMoe: Or... maybe if all designers made all their pages standards compliant so almost every site on the net wouldn't render correctly in IE - perhaps MS would finally be forced to get their act together and abide by the standards?
Are you serious? Would your business be willing to have a (at best) weird or (at worst) non-functional site for a few weeks just to make a point? I think things like mortgages and food are a bit more important than sticking it to Microsoft. | |
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| | | | | | TechyDad Premium Member join:2001-07-13 USA |
to KoolMoe
said by KoolMoe: Or... maybe if all designers made all their pages standards compliant so almost every site on the net wouldn't render correctly in IE - perhaps MS would finally be forced to get their act together and abide by the standards?
Having a standards compliant site and having it work in IE aren't mutually exclusive. I'm working on a redesign right now of my company's site and I'm making it fully XHTML 1.0 Transitional and CSS compliant. There are a few quirks that have to be addressed here and there to accommodate IE, and I need to use JavaScript where I wouldn't need to with FireFox, but that doesn't mean that my site won't be compliant. | |
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| | | | TechyDad |
to nil
said by nil:
Anyway back on topic, I think you'll be hard pressed to find a browser that offends more than IE when it comes to following standards.
Netscape 4. Or did you mean recently released browsers? 'Course, if you did, that would eliminate IE also. | |
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| TechyDad |
to TheMadSwede
As a web developer, I don't mind if FireFox (and the other Mozilla variants) surge in popularity. It might mean more pressure on Microsoft to increase how well IE supports standards like CSS2. It's not like there's a sudden resurgence of Netscape 4. *shudder* | |
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| | ariez join:2004-01-09 00000 |
ariez
Member
2004-Sep-28 4:43 pm
Re: Greatsaid by TechyDad: It's not like there's a sudden resurgence of Netscape 4. *shudder*
what was wrong with netscape 4? | |
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| | | sporkmedrop the crantini and move it, sister MVM join:2000-07-01 Morristown, NJ |
Re: Greatsaid by ariez: what was wrong with netscape 4?
Really, really crappy CSS support. As in, feed it something that is to spec and the browser crashes. | |
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| | | | ariez join:2004-01-09 00000 |
ariez
Member
2004-Sep-28 6:07 pm
Re: Greatdidn't know that. used 4.79 for years (as primary browser) and still do at times but as a secondary | |
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| nixenRockin' the Boxen Premium Member join:2002-10-04 Alexandria, VA |
to TheMadSwede
said by TheMadSwede: Just what web developers need. More browser fragmentation.
I wish these companies would just stick to standards, regardless of the branding of the browser.
bah.
You know, that might actually be a valid point.... If it weren't for the fact that browsers like Firefox, Safari, Opera, etc. strive to be standards compliant. That is to say, so long as you code to established standards, your pages will render the same in any given browser. IE, on the other hand, simply DOESN'T, or at least, doesn't conform to updated standards. And, the things that it doesn't support, tend to make developing basic content more time consuming (read expensive) and more restricted to just that browser. If anything, IE is the source of fragmentation at this point (shocking, eh?). -tom | |
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Re: GreatI guess my point is that I'd LOVE to develop on pure standards like CSS2, etc. etc.; however, if even 50% of the browsers aren't compliant, then my work magically doubles.
There's no point in writing to standards that browsers ignore. | |
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| | | justin..needs sleep Mod join:1999-05-28 2031 Billion BiPAC 7800N Apple AirPort Extreme (2011)
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justin
Mod
2004-Sep-28 5:00 pm
Re: Greatsaid by TheMadSwede:
There's no point in writing to standards that browsers ignore.
The biggest offender has been IE. They should set the example, not show others how to dodge standards. Anyway the point is practically moot. IE has hardly changed a jot in 5 years! having achieved what it thought was a stranglehold, and bundled the browser into the OS, microsoft simply stopped advancing its features. So as the world becoming insecure due to extreme homo-geniality, we also got hardly any improvements, because microsoft had other fish to fry with its free cash. | |
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Re: Greatsaid by justin:
Anyway the point is practically moot.
I thought one of the points of the article was that perhaps it's becoming un-moot. Which is why I'm whining like a big baby about this. | |
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| | | | | justin..needs sleep Mod join:1999-05-28 2031 Billion BiPAC 7800N Apple AirPort Extreme (2011)
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justin
Mod
2004-Sep-28 5:11 pm
Re: Greatif the point of the article is that IE is losing its market share, and your point is that standards non-compliant browsers are a PITA, then you should be happy because one of the biggest contributers to standards-ignorance is sliding down the market share scale. | |
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| | | nixenRockin' the Boxen Premium Member join:2002-10-04 Alexandria, VA |
to TheMadSwede
said by TheMadSwede: I guess my point is that I'd LOVE to develop on pure standards like CSS2, etc. etc.; however, if even 50% of the browsers aren't compliant, then my work magically doubles.
Currently, about 91% of the browsers aren't compliant. -tom | |
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| | TechyDad Premium Member join:2001-07-13 USA |
to nixen
said by nixen:
IE, on the other hand, simply DOESN'T, or at least, doesn't conform to updated standards.
I think that's the best point. IE 6 hasn't been updated in too long. When IE 6 was first released, it was the most standards compliant browser around. The major alternative was Netscape 4 which supported virtually no CSS. IE 6 rightfully gained market share while Netscape first tried to develop a new version, then scrapped it to start over, then got buried in coding for the next few years. For all intents and purposes, Netscape let their browser languish while Microsoft took off. (Yes, there's also the issue of bundling, but IE5 and IE6 were vastly superior to Netscape's offering at the time.) Of course, once they gained dominance, Microsoft made the exact same mistake that Netscape made: They all but stopped improving IE. So while the standards shifted, IE didn't keep up and is now out of date. Of course, it's still more standards compliant than Netscape 4. | |
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| | | nixenRockin' the Boxen Premium Member join:2002-10-04 Alexandria, VA |
nixen
Premium Member
2004-Sep-28 9:09 pm
Re: Greatsaid by TechyDad: Of course, once they gained dominance, Microsoft made the exact same mistake that Netscape made: They all but stopped improving IE. So while the standards shifted, IE didn't keep up and is now out of date. Of course, it's still more standards compliant than Netscape 4.
Yeah, but at least NS4 had roaming profile support. That's been an open RFE since like 2000. It's never gotten solved since noone could agree how to reimplement it into the new Mozilla code. -tom | |
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TechyDad Premium Member join:2001-07-13 USA |
TechyDad
Premium Member
2004-Sep-28 4:26 pm
Another technical communityTechnical communities will be more likely to have Mozilla/FireFox users than the general community. Going by TheCounter.com's stats ( » www.thecounter.com/stats ··· wser.php ), IE 5.x+ holds 91% of the market and Mozilla variants hold about 4%. | |
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palbri Premium Member join:2000-10-22 Suffield, CT |
palbri
Premium Member
2004-Sep-28 4:29 pm
Marketing Hype for a small minorityMore marketing hype for a small minority of users.
Millions and millions of people won't notice or care to know.
While many of the non-tech people I had shown FireFox to, all said that it was too much work to install themes, extensions and plug-ins. | |
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User0101 Premium Member join:2002-12-12 S-ZZ9-PZA |
User0101
Premium Member
2004-Sep-28 4:29 pm
No Title Here...I'm actually a convert from Mozilla/Firefox back to IE after the SP2 Updates. The new integrated Popup Blocker works seamlessly for me. The additional security updates help as well.
Overall, is it perfect... no, but it suits my needs perfectly with other protection I'm running. Run what is suitable for you, try out other platforms if they interest you, determine what is best for you. Don't jump on the bashing bandwagon without actually having some background yourself.
/Trying to catch the "next" browser flamewar before it begins in 3... 2... 1... | |
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inTulsa Premium Member join:2002-02-24 1 edit |
inTulsa
Premium Member
2004-Sep-28 4:31 pm
QuestionableNevermind, same info was posted above by TechyDad . | |
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Dennis Mod join:2001-01-26 Algonquin, IL |
Dennis
Mod
2004-Sep-28 4:47 pm
my site's stats Hits Percent Agent
629,175 42.06% MS Internet Explorer v6 366,313 24.49% Other Agent 201,667 13.48% Spider/Robot 162,889 10.89% MS Internet Explorer v5 40,047 2.68% Netscape Navigator v6 27,156 1.82% Netscape Navigator v5 11,557 0.77% Download Manager
I wonder if "other agent" is mozilla? | |
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Ivybridge_I7Cyber-Crime Researcher OpSec Premium Member join:2004-06-09 Daytona Beach, FL |
IE popularity plungeOver ninety five of users who visit my website (which is off line) are using either Internet Explorer five or six.
It makes you wonder if the claims of this news article are a little far fetched. I realize that my site is very small in comparison to the billions of websites on the internet but it still makes you wonder if Firefox will take down Internet Explorer in the months to come. | |
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Googolplex
Anon
2004-Sep-28 5:12 pm
A touch of saninity.Before we get the inevitable flood of "I hate Firefox" and "I hate IE" posts, I'd like to point out that variety is good for EVERYONE. Remember, that no matter how much you like a particular browser, if everyone used it, we'd be back in the same situation again, where a single security hole in one browser is a massive problem. Though admitedly if that one browser is open source, we'd at least have made *some* progress, as it wouldn't be controlled by any single mega-corporation. | |
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pipdipchip8 Megabits A Second Premium Member join:2003-12-04 Hanover, MN |
Hmm....I'm the webmaster of serveral web sites varying in subject matter. My geek site, WRT54G.com is almost 50/50 Mozilla/ IE. My two teenage fan sites (I'm 16) are only about 15% Mozilla. Really not bad if you think about it. I want Mozilla to become a major browser although I'm a minor Microsoft fan boy.
*using Firefox* | |
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How do you tell?How do you tell which browser was used? Above are the stats for my personal site for the month of September up until midnight last night (the 27th). How can I tell which ones are FireFox/Opera/etc vs IE? | |
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rpsmith join:2004-04-19 Huntington Beach, CA |
Color me unsurprised...Color me unsurprised. ArsTechnica...of course it's gonna be FF/Moz. That's an extremely specialized crowd.
Still, I'm glad to see FF taking off, with reports in major mags etc. Would suck if everything else was obscure and we were forced to use IE because of website support. | |
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dadkinsCan you do Blu? MVM join:2003-09-26 Hercules, CA 1 edit |
Glad that I don't follow trends/fadsI prefer Opera over ANY Mozilla product, but I have an IE based browser as my default. Before anyone chimes in about the "exploits" are still inherent because "it's just a shell", I have never been compromised/exploited/hijacked. I use ActiveX daily, almost constantly, and no problems there either. Hello! HouseCall? Panda Scan? Windows Update? etc. Funny percentages in this article... From 80% to 38% IE slump and a rise to 23% by Mozilla based browsers. Where is that other 19%? Who is using up the other 39% that IE and Mozilla aren't using? Have a good evening people! | |
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| Neil6Stop All The Downloadin join:2003-08-20 New York, NY
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Neil6
Member
2004-Sep-28 10:35 pm
Re: Glad that I don't follow trends/fadsI was wondering about that myself. | |
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JMan0948Where's The Background Music? Premium Member join:2003-03-25 Gilberts, IL |
JMan0948
Premium Member
2004-Sep-28 6:22 pm
AND STILL!! | |
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twizlarI dont think so. Premium Member join:2003-12-24 Brantford, ON
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twizlar
Premium Member
2004-Sep-28 6:24 pm
StatsPeriod 09/2/04 - 10/2/04
Browsers Hits Percent MS Internet Explorer 33248 91.4 % Mozilla No 1673 4.6 % Netscape 768 2.1 % Safari 366 1 % Unknown ? 190 0.5 % Konqueror 48 0.1 % Opera 24 0 % Links 12 0 % firebird 11 0 % Galeon 9 0 %
from my site | |
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Trakker8Danger Premium Member join:2003-01-12 ß
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Trakker8
Premium Member
2004-Sep-28 6:59 pm
Well maybe they need to look at "normal sites"Yeah geek world sites are going be non IE....
Browsers Percent MS IE 79 % Mozilla 13.3 % Netscape 5.2 % Safari 0.8 % Unknown 0.8 % Opera 0.4 % Konqueror 0.1 % Firebird 0 % WebTV browser 0 % I-Mode phone 0 % Others 0 % | |
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Bobb5 Premium Member join:2001-02-16 Kent, WA 1 edit |
Bobb5
Premium Member
2004-Sep-28 11:56 pm
Pretty funny stats there, hilarious even!Want some Real numbers? Only ones you'll be likely to see! Can you say global usage share - WebSideStory Inc.'s real focus is its on-demand Web analytics services for business customers, said Erik Bratt, the company's corporate communications director. But the data collected from thousands of Web sites and 20 million to 40 million users a day has shown WebSideStory that there is a small decline in Internet Explorer use from 95.73 percent on June 4 to 94.73 percent on July 6. - It's not just WebSideStory observing this phenomenon. OneStat.com, a Web analytics firm based in Amsterdam, the Netherlands, also reported a downturn in IE usage. The company "confirms this decrease of the global usage share of IE. On January 19, the global usage share of IE was 94.8 percent, and on May 28, the global usage share was 93.9 percent," according to a representative for OneStat.com. | |
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| ObdH Premium Member join:2003-06-11 Abilene, TX |
ObdH
Premium Member
2004-Sep-30 12:29 am
Re: Pretty funny stats there, hilarious even!said by Bobb5: Want some Real numbers? Only ones you'll be likely to see! Can you say global usage share - WebSideStory Inc.'s real focus is its on-demand Web analytics services for business customers, said Erik Bratt, the company's corporate communications director. But the data collected from thousands of Web sites and 20 million to 40 million users a day has shown WebSideStory that there is a small decline in Internet Explorer use from 95.73 percent on June 4 to 94.73 percent on July 6. - It's not just WebSideStory observing this phenomenon. OneStat.com, a Web analytics firm based in Amsterdam, the Netherlands, also reported a downturn in IE usage. The company "confirms this decrease of the global usage share of IE. On January 19, the global usage share of IE was 94.8 percent, and on May 28, the global usage share was 93.9 percent," according to a representative for OneStat.com.
kind like the whole firefox spread thing, they wanted 1mil downloads in 10 days or something and got twice that (of course some cheating may have occured) so I'm sure a couple million downloads could be the indirect reason for a 1% plunge in IE usage | |
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