Microsoft's iPod Killer: 'Zune'

I love the first comment on the article ... pretty much sums up my thoughts as well regarding this thing related to security:

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Hmmmmm, they seem to be taking the Gremlin idea to a higher level of wireless connectivty.

Sweet?

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No surprise that it's M$ proprietary. My bet? Put me in the pool that the iPod and iTunes will remain top of the heap and this will be greeted with a great big "so what?" by the online music aficionado populace. Add to that, no videos, TV programs ... more M$ trying to catch up with too little too late.

I think you summed up every ones post with that no need to read the rest.

Well, unless Apple magically gains a device presence outside of their iPods and Macs, Apple's going to have a real battle on their hands with this. It's not about the device, it's about the "service" and what it can do elsewhere.

MS is going to be able to tie this in and integrate it with things Apple can only dream of. The XBox Live tie-ins /alone/ should scare the living *daylights* out Jobs and his entourage, as it's already a very large community they have to equivalent of and no hope whatsoever of penetrating. And the Xbox Live component is only a fraction of the overall plan.

MS isn't trying to catch up -- MS has been keeping their word so far in terms of "entering your living room" and have been putting things in place slowly to do just that. I'm actually a bit surprised Apple hasn't tried to make some othert sort of presence besides iPods (I suppose it really shows how limited and narrow Apple's vision is), because that's where they're going to get clobbered. While Apple's out futiley trying to convince you to watch 3 hour movies on a 2-inch screen, other companies are actually adjusting to and accounting for what people already watch in their living rooms and figuring out how they can improve it and capitalize on it -- instead of asking you to do something you don't already want to do and have never wanted, they'r etaking what you already do and want and combining them all together.

If you doubt MS's plan to slowly tie all these devices and services together, you're a complete fool because MS knowsif they actually do this, people WILL awant it (because they've wanted it for some time now). When you can get the exact same info, service, files, etc, on your mobile phone, 360, portable media player, PC, TV/DVR, PDA, etc., that's beyond formidable and it's going to be impossible to ignore.

Sure, MS could still screw it all up and it could flop, but as things go in the market to gamble on, this seems like one of the safest, most-obvious ideas out there for MS to invest in -- and most-importantly it's a move Apple as a company can't possibly answer or reply to because they're simply not capable of it.

Have you ever bought anything from the iTunes Music Store?

Do you want to buy it again?

Incorrect.

Apple won the market with gorilla marketing, and thus, if M$ was to have a big piece of the pie, it merely has to do the same.

(ie. pain subway trains with simple, eye catching color).

Its all marketing, sad, but true.

I am Free From Marketing. So are many others.

iPod has pretty much had the field to itself so far. There are plenty of good MP3 players out there, but they can't match the Apple iTunes/Ipod marketing machine. The success or failure of Zune will depend on 2 things. How much marketing muscle will Microsoft expend on the project. And how good will the music service be that feeds music for the Zune player. And even if MS makes a big effort, it will have to be sustained for a long time to make a big dent in Apple's lead in the marketplace.

ok.. but the ipod is only for sheep

DRM, crappy sound quality and all in all a piece of junk.

anybody who spends ten minutes doing research is can see that the other alternatives are much better than the ipod.

Microsoft will probably just follow Apple and make it so you have to use .WMA files or something silly like that when there are open source alternatives

Uh, HELLO, you can put your own MP3 or AAC files on the iPod you know. You don't have to buy songs from the iTMS.

mp3 files aren't good quality...

the ipod offers .m4a closed source lossless

microsoft has thier own closed source lossless codec too...

why buy from the big guys who are selling junk when the alternative is free?

»flac.sourceforge.net/

Two questions:

1. Are there any readily available players that support FLAC?

2. When you're using dinky little earbuds (the target audience), is there anything to gain by using FLAC? By the time the output gets to the ear, it's already butchered by the earbuds, at least in my experience.

iAudio X5 has had flac support for almost a year. Although, yes, anything over 256Kbps for portable mp3 player is probably overkill since ambient noise is too great to enjoy all the music detail.

An mp3 file encoded a 320k (or 384k) is much more than adequate for any mp3 type player. This is made even more apparent when you consider that 99.9999% of users listen with headphones. Listening to loss-less music files with ear buds is a waste of time, money, and space on your hard drive.

Bzzt. Encode at a higher bitrate if 192 isn't "good enough" for headphones or your car.No, it offers open-source AAC non-lossless, and Apple "proprietary" lossless.You bet your sweet bididdy they do.As others have said, find me a player that will play that. Better yet, find a market for people that want to cram lossless onto a portable player. Not to mention if you load another OS onto your iPod you can play FLAC, ogg and many other formats as well as record uncompressed with the iPod.

iaudio

google it

i have one

That's debatable. The fact that you would make such a sweeping generalization when there are so many different encoders and possibile bitrates out there shows that your knowledge in this area is relatively limited.

An mp3 encoded with lame at 192kbps (or with the alt-preset-standard flag) is going to be very close to CD quality. It's not lossless, but it should be good enough for the vast majority of music listeners. True audiophiles probably aren't going to bother with digital music any way.

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the ipod offers .m4a closed source lossless

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Again, you have no idea what you're talking about. Read up on AAC: »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad ··· o_Coding

why buy from the big guys who are selling junk when the alternative is free?

»flac.sourceforge.net/

You can put lossless audio on your ipod! Lossless is lossless is lossless. Is that such a hard concept for you to understand?

there are only 2 kinds of audio codecs, lossy and lossless.

My statment was that the what the large companies offer in terms of quality of serivce and sound is not comparable to the free alternatives.

What are you talking about true audiophiles won't touch digital music? what do you think a CD is?

I don't think you have ever played a flac encoding of an album next to a 192 mp3. I challange you to rip your favorite album using

»forum.calonet.org/index. ··· 7.0.html

encode it to 192 and choose any lossless codec you like...

what microsoft and apple offer for lossless is closed source.

No shit, sherlock. This adds nothing to the discussion.Apple allows you to play lossless files on the ipod. Converting from FLAC (or any other lossless format) to Apple lossless is not going affect the quality. Your argument is so ridiculously pedantic, that it's barely worth acknowledging.Most people who consider themselves pure audiophiles won't touch anything but vinyl.

playing and managing a file are two seperate things... with a proprietary codec or a lossy release you are stuck with what you have short of transcoding. With FLAC or any other open source codec you can expand it to .wav just like the cd bit for bit. A while back someone posted something like this.

Consider two people randy and andy. There is a murder. Now suppose we are reading the lossy copy of the book. If characters are missing, andy could easily go down for crimes that randy commited. By supporting dumbed down verisons you arent even getting the sound intended by the sound engineer or the artist. what is left?

If you can't see the advantage of this i don't know what to say next.

I think you're missing the point: Lossless is lossless, proprietary or not.

By the way, your so-called listening tests don't impress me much. First of all, they're not double-blind (ABX) and, for all you know, your software player might be introducing some EQ differences across the filetypes.

Here are the results of a recent double-blind listening test of various formats at 128 kbps:

LAME did pretty well and when increasing the bitrate to even greater levels, there should be little doubt as to the quality, especially for portable solutions.

Is all lossless comresssion equal?

»wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/i ··· mparison

Each lossless codec has their own merits, proprietary closed source codecs are only good for the people who sell them.

The results of double blind tests, imo, are irrelevant, i take what my own ears can hear as evidence. Just because there are people who can't tell the difference, I am not one of them.

From wikipedia:

"Because MP3 is a lossy format, it is able to provide a number of different options for its "bit rate" — that is, the number of bits of encoded data that are used to represent each second of audio. Typically, rates chosen are between 128 and 320 kilobit per second. By contrast, uncompressed audio as stored on a compact disc has a bit rate of 1411.2 kbit/s (16 bits/sample × 44100 samples/second × 2 channels).

Which is what is preserved by using a lossless codec. Now.. lets see why whould i want the flexibility to compress and decompress my music as i see fit? Let's face it today's DRM is only in place so that you buy yet another copy of your favorite bands albums. I think IMO should not have to purchase the Led Zepplin albums on vinyl and 8 track and cassette and then again on cd oh and of course the DRM version which samples at a much lower rate then all technology from the last 20 years.

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DRM, crappy sound quality and all in all a piece of junk.

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Just burn those downloaded from iTunes Music Store to an audio CD. DRM removed.

No issues with the SQ here on a 4G and Nano - sounds AWESOME through good headphones, my home stereo, and my car.

Very durable - I've run, dropped, and not been all too careful with my 4G iPod - guess what - after 2 years still running perfect.

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anybody who spends ten minutes doing research is can see that the other alternatives are much better than the ipod.

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Like what? Most of my coworkers (and myself) who had the others are now iPod owners.....

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Microsoft will probably just follow Apple and make it so you have to use .WMA files or something silly like that when there are open source alternatives

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You do realize you can put MP3's on an iPod and the AAC/MPEG4 is available to anyone who wants to license from Dolby. AAC files are supported on many mobile phones and many PC/Mac players.

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The service is going to be the key, because MS has hedged their bets that a service that can do 8 times what iTunes can will speak for itself and hurt iTunes where it counts -- in the money and time spent on it by consumers

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Like what? I don't want to rent my music. Unless they start selling videos, there's nothing that the ITMS doesn't do better than Urge or the other 900 WMA stores.

The WiFi thing sounds cool until you realize:
1) You will have to pay for that service - MS is negotiating with record companies on royalties. You don't think they will absorb those costs, do you?

2) You can only share with other Zune players. So, now I'm paying for a service for a device that most likely nobody or very few people will have. Yeah, I want that????

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MS is going to be able to tie this in and integrate it with things Apple can only dream of. The XBox Live tie-ins /alone/ should scare the living *daylights* out Jobs and his entourage, as it's already a very large community they have to equivalent of and no hope whatsoever of penetrating. And the Xbox Live component is only a fraction of the overall plan.

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All of 0 people I know own Xbox 360's. Those that console game either have PS1/PS2 and are waiting for PS3. One owns an Xbox....

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While Apple's out futiley trying to convince you to watch 3 hour movies on a 2-inch screen, other companies are actually adjusting to and accounting for what people already watch in their living rooms and figuring out how they can improve it and capitalize on it -- instead of asking you to do something you don't already want to do and have never wanted, they'r etaking what you already do and want and combining them all together.

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You do know you can plug an AV cable into the headphone jack of a 5G iPod and display it rhough your TV, right?

Or that your Mac Mini, iMac, MacBook, and MacBook Pro will connect to your TV. Then the included FrontRow will let you access your content: iTMS movies, home movies, iTunes library, and photos. The only thing that it doesn't do is record off TV. Given that everything is moving in the direction of HD and none of the current MCE PC's support this, seems like Apple is smart to wait it out. Someone needs to come out with a CableCARD device for this application.... But, I'd not hold your breath - content owners are scared to death about you recording their stuff in HD....

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If you doubt MS's plan to slowly tie all these devices and services together, you're a complete fool because MS knowsif they actually do this, people WILL awant it (because they've wanted it for some time now). When you can get the exact same info, service, files, etc, on your mobile phone, 360, portable media player, PC, TV/DVR, PDA, etc., that's beyond formidable and it's going to be impossible to ignore.

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And like every other time MS has tried this, it has failes miserably. ActiveSync is a POS, PmP syncing with WiMP is a joke, MCE is decent but too tied to the horrible Windows UI. The only shining star is Xbox and Xbox 360. I wonder how long MS will stay in that market when it becomes clear to them they cannot dominate?

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Sure, MS could still screw it all up and it could flop, but as things go in the market to gamble on, this seems like one of the safest, most-obvious ideas out there for MS to invest in -- and most-importantly it's a move Apple as a company can't possibly answer or reply to because they're simply not capable of it.

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Actually, Apple can. They control the whole widget from OS to hardware it runs on. Where MS can't control the ultimate hardware (and must support 1000000 configurations) their software runs on, Apple will make it work with their computers flawlessly. Look at the iPod experience - it works perfectly on a Mac. It works well on a PC, but seemlessly on the Mac.

They could easily add a few features to FrontRow and the Mini, drop the price $100 and sell it as a Mac Media Center. People would snap it up. Read up on Front Row here:
»www.apple.com/macmini/fr ··· row.html

It's a work in progress, but with a little polish it could easily give XP MCE A run for its money.

I think you seriously underestimate and are ignorant of Apple. Might I suggest you familiarize yourself with their offerings?

you are still stuck with mpeee3's itunes and silly DRM(which will be the same with m$ offering). Just like you like to hipe the video capabilities of the future... Guess what the future of personal audio is lossless.

All this talk about video and quality does not impress me... The function of a portable music device is not to watch movies. Fancy the thought that someone might spend 100$ or a good set of earbuds for their 400$ player. You want to talk about video and hipe up another proprietary codec when you don't really understand that there are alternatives! My iaudio can be connected via usb to any PC that runs windows explorer. Itunes can't touch that!

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Guess what the future of personal audio is lossless.

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Hardly until they figure to get lossless into the space occiped by current compression methods. On my systems (not low end stuff either), 192k AAC's out of iTunes sound perfectly like the CD's they came from. Good enough for me.

Also, given 70% of the MP3 market has an iPod, I'd say most are satisifed with MP3's and AAC files. AAC does not mean DRM. Only Fairplay (iTMS purchased tracks) is DRM'ed. 95% of the music on my iPod came from my CD's.

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Fancy the thought that someone might spend 100$ or a good set of earbuds for their 400$ player.

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Been there, done that, got the cans. They sound great connected to my iPod and with the music on it.

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My iaudio can be connected via usb to any PC that runs windows explorer. Itunes can't touch that!

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No, it conntects to PC's and Macs (No need for Windows Explorer), the comptuers used by 99% of the population. I've been there, done that with the manual drag and drop to the device (had a Rio) and it sucked a$$. I'll take the class leading iTunes, thanks.

I can't resist! Please consider the alternatives (which is what my first post said).

»www.foobar2000.org/

and you can even make it look like itunes minus all DRM!

»www.aqua-soft.org/board/ ··· ?t=22254

MP3s sound no different then a CD in quality when played over a car audio system. atleast using the system in my 11yr old truck as a benchmark.

What sounds better is always subjective. I have one of the iPod compatible Alpine decks installed in my '03 Accord. Even ripped at very high bit rates my my equivalent MP3s still pale a little in my car compared to the original CD. The dynamic range just is not there to my own ears at least. YMMV.

MS has come up with a very weird web site where you can sign up for Zune newsletters. It starts with a little cartoon video:
»comingzune.com/default.a ··· ;id=2631

Sad but true. Marketing catches the average user but for people who want something that is truley usable the fact that something comes in 50 different colors means nothing.
Most of them put so many limitations to nickle and dime you with "only works with i-tunes" etc that it's a TOTAL turn off.
$2.00 for a midi file "ringtone" for my phone? Take a hike!!
Thats why I bought a Zen Vision M
40gig hsrd drive and a battery that lasts over 4 hours while playing video!
It plays 90% of all the formats out today and even has an fm tuner.
Inovation/giving the user the ability to do what they want and curbing the desire to bilk you for every dime to use will put Apple and MS in the backseat.

Look for the Zune to be on sale at k-mart in the blue-light specials bin!
Couldnt PAY me to use it!

Do we have to bring up "Origami"? This is just another marketing scheme where they refuse to show us the product but talk about how great it is instead. Perhaps this time when they unveil it there won't be a world wide groan of disappointment like the Origami caused.

Yeah. I have absolutely no say on this until I actually see and hear the thing. Right now all we have is hype.

IPod Killer? I doubt it. It wont be the IPod killer any more than the first XBox was the PlayStation2 Killer. If anything M$ and Apple will go to war and they will end up pushing each other for the latest greatest.

and microsoft has plenty of it, Only time can tell

I think this story missed what I consider the big and exciting part of the whole thing.

It's highly likely that microsoft will foot the bill for iTunes music/licenses, re-purchasing them so they will work with their media player in WMA format. That's right, the software will probably scan your computer for purchased tracks, re-buy them, and give them to you in a Zune-friendly format. »www.engadget.com/2006/07 ··· et-know/

Wi-Fi compatibility, as well as media center integration could be simply awesome. Instead of buying separate and non-interchangeable formats and DRM'ed copies of the same media, one copy on the media center (be that the PVR, desktop, e.t.c.) could be stored on their handheld player for later playback. I consider that kind of media portability (video, audio, and movies) the holy grail of portable media.

Should just buy apple. I am sure they already spent that much money on this failed R&D project.

Just makes me amazed that Microsoft 'Plays for Sure' partners didn't see this coming. Microsoft's music store will not play on the 'Plays for Sure' devices, only on their new 'Zune'. Microsoft will gain market-share (in my opinion), but only at the expense of their business partners.

History has officially repeated itself once again with Microsoft.

What operating system will Microsoft's new gadget be running?

My personal pick would be on the the BSD variants; a gadget running a microsoft operating system with a wireless connection will most liely be 0wned. Perhaps someone should write a new exploit to take over these new iBots so that only play Lawerence Welk...

Will "Zune" be out before whatever Apple is announcing to play the movies they will be renting?

I'd put money on "no".

»www.engadget.com/2006/07 ··· -ebooks/

All the pictures I've seen of the rumored "full screen" iPod look great. Maybe just a rumor, maybe not. If the final product looks like all the leaked pics, the coolness factor alone will drive sales beyond whatever "engineered for gaming nerds" clunkbox MS will deliver (late).

If Windows Vista is any indication quality, we won't see a functional version of the Zune for at least 4 more years. I can just see it now.... Microsoft "Genuine Advantage" has determined your music files contain no DRM signatures......... To improve your Microsoft experiences, we are now reformatting your drive to re-enable DRM..........

Thank you for using Microsoft.......... BLAH!

Thanks MS, I'll keep my IPOD's and run without any DRM restrictions as I currently do.

Lemme see, load the device at 400 mbit, or 54-108 mbit...
So what you can load it over wifi.. i'd ponder the thought that some people who have ipods, have laptops as well (even if it those cheap POS $399 ones).

Imagine, an zune, the price of a cheap laptop...

Well everyone has an MP3 player out, so I'm not sure why this is getting so much press. It won't take any market share from the Ipod, if that was easy then all the others like sandisk would have already done that, just because MS has one doesn't mean anything, they can't just put it on their desktop like they did with the browser.

"Zune" If I where Creative makers of the "Zen" players which in my opinion are better then the Ipod I would be pissed.

bring it on... beat the $269 price (for zen vision 30gb) and let a few people get it in their hands and see if it's REALLY worth the coin..
also, if you overprice yourself out of the market, you have only yourself to kick in the $$$!