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NY Marriott Stops Wi-Fi JavaScript Ad Injection
Wasn't Aware of the Practice, Blames ISP

Earlier this week we noted that New York's City Marriott hotel locations were taking a page out of the bad-idea ISP playbook and had started to use Javascript to inject ads over the content viewed using the hotel's free Wi-Fi service. As was the case when ISPs tried this a few years back the backlash was fast and furious, particularly from ad and content developers who don't like having their own content blocked by traffic stream manipulation.

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Marriott has since investigated, rather quickly issuing a statement blaming their ISP, while saying they've stopped the practice completely:
quote:
As soon as we learned of the situation, we launched an investigation into the matter. Preliminary findings revealed that, unbeknownst to the hotel, the Internet service provider (ISP) was utilizing functionality that allowed advertising to be pushed to the end user. The ISP has assured the hotel that this functionality has now been disabled.

While this is a common marketing practice with many Internet service providers, Marriott does not condone this practice. At no time was data security ever at risk. We will continue to look into this matter and find opportunities to remind our hotels of Marriott’s high-speed Internet policies.
The ad injection technology was provided by a company named RG Nets, who not too surprisingly doesn't want to talk about the story. In addition to the practice being in bad taste and potentially illegal, Marriott was already charging customers $17 for Internet access.
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djdanska
Rudie32
Premium Member
join:2001-04-21
San Diego, CA

1 recommendation

djdanska

Premium Member

Coming soon to at&t wifi hotspots near you..

»www.dailywireless.org/20 ··· deo-ads/
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT
·Frontier FiberOp..
Asus RT-AC68

BiggA

Premium Member

Expensive and slow

And they were already ripping their customers off, and who knows if it was fast or not. I've seen many hotels with a single T1 for several hundred rooms. News flash hotels: 50-100mbps cable connections are pretty cheap these days, and multiple users streaming video isn't going to work on a T1. It's pretty sad when it would be faster (if bandwidth limited) to tether off my iPhone than use a hotel's crappy wifi.

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

battleop

Member

Re: Expensive and slow

Most hotel chains won't allow a consumer grade circuit. They higher end hotels usually allow for only T1, DS3, or Metro Ethernet circuits because consumer grade circuits are often not reliable across the board.

Some are now starting to require a second connection to another provider and they are now beginning to allow the second circuit to be a consumer grade circuit that's load balanced with an enterprise circuit.
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT
·Frontier FiberOp..
Asus RT-AC68

BiggA

Premium Member

Re: Expensive and slow

The best hotel internet I've seen has all been business class cable. The one that has Comcast felt like the fastest internet I've ever been on. It has so much more bandwidth than crappy T1 lines. Any hotel requiring a T1 needs to get their head out of their ass, realize people need more than 1.5mbps shared with 100 other strangers, and get cable if it's available. For a similar price as a T1, they could get 100mbps cable. That's enough for like 20 HD video streams.

Smith6612
MVM
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North Tonawanda, NY
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Smith6612

MVM

Who do they use as an ISP?

If the hotels are using T1 lines they pay for, they should get a less cruddy ISP, especially for the price such lines run for. Now if they're still using T1s, I would also ditch those for something faster in this day and age as well.

I've been to a hotel with at least a thousand rooms in it out in rural Pennsylvania, with the wireless being ran by a ton of old Linksys routers, and supply Wired network access to the rooms as well. Two years ago they didn't have wired access but upon remodeling the hotels they added in wired ports. In the past, that building used to have a Sprint T1 line and a Verizon DSL connection, where the entire resort ran through a Sonicwall before load balancing between the two connections. They recently moved their T1 to their own operations and set up the DSL connection and a 10/2 Cable connection to run their Free Wi-Fi. The hotel section runs off of a 3Mbps/768kbps line, but they have the 10/2 connection running their busiest locations. It runs really nice with the setup they have, and if one line goes down the Sonicwall they run load balances between the two connections. Even though they removed their Pay Wi-Fi option, they don't inject ads and actually let it run up to standards (minus one or two APs that just don't work anymore Wirelessly, only wired).
Chubbysumo
join:2009-12-01
Duluth, MN
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Chubbysumo

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Re: Who do they use as an ISP?

said by Smith6612:

They recently moved their T1 to their own operations and set up the DSL connection and a 10/2 Cable connection to run their Free Wi-Fi.

I understand having 2 ISPs in case of outages with one, but there has to be faster connections they can afford there. I have a faster connection than both of those lines combined for myself. I find that when I travel, nothing seems to be as fast as my home, and even if it is capable, there is always 1 person abusing it(which would be okay, if it was only theirs), killing it for the rest of us. It really does make me sad, that when I travel, and how much you pay for a hotel room, that they could not have at least a 100mbps symmetrical line for all the money they make on those rooms. I guess cheapskates will be cheap.

Smith6612
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North Tonawanda, NY
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Smith6612

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Re: Who do they use as an ISP?

The setup is better than what they used to have though! Considering the amount of land and real estate the resort has out in PA, while things are expensive it's very nice up there. Most of their income has gone into refurbishing the ski slopes which get torn up every year, remodeling the hotel (which is still taking place) and the resort in general. In the past, they used to load balance between the T1 and the DSL connection. That was when they had Paid Wi-Fi which was $20 a day for access but only in the Hotel and near common areas. The DSL connection was constantly down (when it was working, it was OK) and the T1 was always ridiculously overloaded. Their gateway was also always 800ms at night as well. At the same time their network often ran out of DHCP addresses.

The changes they've made, while getting 100Mbps where they are isn't cheap by any means (their cable company doesn't even offer that kind of speed), are a big improvement. Solid latency to their gateway now, more than enough DHCP addresses, roaming works from Linksys router to Linksys router without hitting dead APs, or dropping connection completely, and you actually sustain speeds unless others are on the line. The plus is that they did this while taking away their Pay Wi-Fi Cash Cow, and while adding a lot more devices to the network (Lots and lots of phones). They also added more APs to cover outdoors since people seem to enjoy being out and about while on the Wi-Fi. They have their own cell phone antennas on the hotel building as well, so they improved cell service and 3G from Verizon actually hits 2.8Mbps down, 700kbps up rather consistently. They most likely had to pay for those as well. Before all of these changes you often had 1-0 bars of service (but service did still work).

rrneteng
Piedmont Triad Region
join:2004-08-06
united state

rrneteng

Member

Re: Who do they use as an ISP?

I am with you on most of this but the technology available today makes traffic shaping point and click. The overloads are easily rectified but due to lazyness and costing cutting measures internet access for the chains is not a top priority. The problem lies with the chains going to the ISP/MSO/Telcom and purchasing whatever package the current sales person is getting the most commission for. While I fully understand that most of the hotels were there long before Cat5/6 had become the norm it isn't exactly rocket science running access points or reusing existing phone wiring for a DSL style setup. This stuff has been around quite some time now. While I don't mind having a 128X128 or 256X256 connection, with no traffic shaping in place and 1000ms latency the connection could be fiber and still feel worse than dialup. The DHCP issues (which I have seen also) is nothing again but lazyness. Every hotel chain I have seen was nat overloading so simply creating larger DHCP scopes or splitting the scopes by floors again solves the problem.

Vchat20
Landing is the REAL challenge
Premium Member
join:2003-09-16
Columbus, OH

Vchat20

Premium Member

Re: Who do they use as an ISP?

I think the biggest thing is the large majority of the time each individual hotel is run by their own staff so at best the IT side is on a per-hotel basis. And I would wager the focus is more on the primary seller (hotel rooms) than internet access. And along with that comes hiring someone to handle it who they think does it 'good enough' and nobody replaces them with better experience for that exact same reason. That's my take on it anyways.

I've been to a handful of hotels over the years some under the same chain (mind you, not the Marriott's or Hilton's of the world but your average family-of-4 staples) and the internet setup always varied. Though more often than not I've seen at least a business cable connection with good speeds, sadly connected to a single AP covering the whole hotel.

Eagles1221
join:2009-04-29
Vincentown, NJ

Eagles1221 to Chubbysumo

Member

to Chubbysumo
Do you have any idea how much a 100Mbit symmetrical business class line runs? Oh, you don't..then be quiet.

I know how much my office fiber runs and while its not super expensive its not "cheap" either.

When I was in a hotel in Atlanta they fed 1200 rooms from a T3. In theory a D3 Mbit cable line would have been faster and lower price.
Chubbysumo
join:2009-12-01
Duluth, MN
Ubee E31U2V1
(Software) pfSense
Netgear WNR3500L

Chubbysumo

Member

Re: Who do they use as an ISP?

said by Eagles1221:

Do you have any idea how much a 100Mbit symmetrical business class line runs? Oh, you don't..then be quiet.

Actually, I do. I am considering moving to one, since me and my wife are now financially better off. I got offers of $350 per month, uncapped, with 2 static IPs, and 100 email addresses per IP.

Eagles1221
join:2009-04-29
Vincentown, NJ

Eagles1221

Member

Re: Who do they use as an ISP?

That's not typically what a hotel would use. A hotel would have to get a business class (think big money). One of my hotel clients has 20 mbit fiber they pay $2600 a month for. While that is cheaper than the T1 they used to have, it still isn't in the few hundred per month range that a residential grade service would run.

Smith6612
MVM
join:2008-02-01
North Tonawanda, NY

Smith6612 to Chubbysumo

MVM

to Chubbysumo
Who's the ISP? That sounds a bit more regional to you than it does to what I could possibly get around here.

kevinds
Premium Member
join:2003-05-01
Calgary, AB

kevinds to Chubbysumo

Premium Member

to Chubbysumo
$350/month for 100/100 uncapped.

That is by far the cheapest I have seen, I am obviously not where you live, but on the west coast of this country, all the offers I had were around $15,000 +/-$2,000
Chubbysumo
join:2009-12-01
Duluth, MN
Ubee E31U2V1
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Chubbysumo

Member

Re: Who do they use as an ISP?

said by kevinds:

$350/month for 100/100 uncapped.

That is by far the cheapest I have seen, I am obviously not where you live, but on the west coast of this country, all the offers I had were around $15,000 +/-$2,000

In response to Kevinds, and Smith6612: Its a local teleco, and fiber based. Part of the reason its so cheap is because there is 2 big name providers here(charter and qwest), and Minnesota, and most of wisconsin has lots of smaller independent telecos and providers to choose from, so our prices are typically better around here. From where I live, discounting the wireless providers(but we do have LTE from both AT&T and Verizon up here too in duluth/superior), I have a choice of 5 providers for high speed internet, and especially with business services, they will undercut each other for your business(I even heard of a local teleco that paid another ISPs ETF to get a business service). That $350 per month for the 100/100 uncapped is a direct FTTP/FTTH service. Its the end result of what occured from Duluth/Superior really wanting the Google fiber project. Hell, some local companies started trenching and hanging fiber just to try and entice the google reps who visited. What happened when they didnt pick here, was that all that fiber is now getting used by the local ISPs that bought it. The only thing that is expensive is getting it installed. The run from the street where the fiber bundle they would split from to my apartment building and then to my unit would be over $800, and I have to sign a 2 year contract(negotiating with the rep, he said that if I get 3 other units of the 7 rented ones to sign up for residential services, they will waive the 2 year contract requirement). They are still trenching and channeling more fiber throughout the area too, but sadly, once you get close to city limits, it peters out pretty fast.
As far as residential services go, we have Charters ultra100, we have Qwest/century link 40/20 service(if you live close enough, DSL/ADSL2+), we have TelephoneAssociates 50/50 and 100/100 services(FTTH), We have clear up here still with their 10/1(not fast, but it works, and its cheap), we have AT&T LTE services, and with our local backhaul being fiber, the speeds up here are always good, and Verizon LTE, again, served by fiber backhaul and the speeds at usually 15+ on the down side for a moving phone, and there is 1 more, an independent ISP that uses point to point wireless(mostly for the people out in the country, hes a country bumpkin himself, and his 512K/128K DSL wasnt cutting it, so he leased lines and set up a point to point wireless ISP for him and his neighbors). My gramma has them, and they get 15 down, and 2 up, out in the middle of nowhereland(16 miles to town), tho i have no idea what they pay. Look up all the FTTH and local teleco projects in MN and WI. MN has something like 50 communities that decided to wire themselves when incumbents didnt, so we get decent prices, and great speeds. Not the best, but pretty darn good. Our area really shows that competition really can drive prices down for everything.
cooldude9919
join:2000-05-29

cooldude9919

Member

Re: Who do they use as an ISP?

said by Chubbysumo:

said by kevinds:

$350/month for 100/100 uncapped.

That is by far the cheapest I have seen, I am obviously not where you live, but on the west coast of this country, all the offers I had were around $15,000 +/-$2,000

In response to Kevinds, and Smith6612: Its a local teleco, and fiber based. Part of the reason its so cheap is because there is 2 big name providers here(charter and qwest), and Minnesota, and most of wisconsin has lots of smaller independent telecos and providers to choose from, so our prices are typically better around here. From where I live, discounting the wireless providers(but we do have LTE from both AT&T and Verizon up here too in duluth/superior), I have a choice of 5 providers for high speed internet, and especially with business services, they will undercut each other for your business(I even heard of a local teleco that paid another ISPs ETF to get a business service). That $350 per month for the 100/100 uncapped is a direct FTTP/FTTH service. Its the end result of what occured from Duluth/Superior really wanting the Google fiber project. Hell, some local companies started trenching and hanging fiber just to try and entice the google reps who visited. What happened when they didnt pick here, was that all that fiber is now getting used by the local ISPs that bought it. The only thing that is expensive is getting it installed. The run from the street where the fiber bundle they would split from to my apartment building and then to my unit would be over $800, and I have to sign a 2 year contract(negotiating with the rep, he said that if I get 3 other units of the 7 rented ones to sign up for residential services, they will waive the 2 year contract requirement). They are still trenching and channeling more fiber throughout the area too, but sadly, once you get close to city limits, it peters out pretty fast.
As far as residential services go, we have Charters ultra100, we have Qwest/century link 40/20 service(if you live close enough, DSL/ADSL2+), we have TelephoneAssociates 50/50 and 100/100 services(FTTH), We have clear up here still with their 10/1(not fast, but it works, and its cheap), we have AT&T LTE services, and with our local backhaul being fiber, the speeds up here are always good, and Verizon LTE, again, served by fiber backhaul and the speeds at usually 15+ on the down side for a moving phone, and there is 1 more, an independent ISP that uses point to point wireless(mostly for the people out in the country, hes a country bumpkin himself, and his 512K/128K DSL wasnt cutting it, so he leased lines and set up a point to point wireless ISP for him and his neighbors). My gramma has them, and they get 15 down, and 2 up, out in the middle of nowhereland(16 miles to town), tho i have no idea what they pay. Look up all the FTTH and local teleco projects in MN and WI. MN has something like 50 communities that decided to wire themselves when incumbents didnt, so we get decent prices, and great speeds. Not the best, but pretty darn good. Our area really shows that competition really can drive prices down for everything.

Thats pretty cool, but obviously not that way everywhere. Hell even some places whith good muni-fiber have limits. LusFiber 100mbit plan for business has a 8 TeraBit limit, which is 1 TeraByte, which for 100mb at a business may not go very far.

Best case for a true business class connection with no limits and an SLA would be $200 for 100mbit from Hurricane Electric, but thats in a lit DataCenter where HE has a POP. Add in a local fiber loop and you jump way up from there, under $2k total and you are doing pretty good. ACC business (wholesale arm of ATT) has 100mbit for around $2400 that you can get in any decent sized city where ATT is the LEC(even mine which is only ~37k population), which isnt horrible, and nothing like the ~15k that was posted earlier.

rrneteng
Piedmont Triad Region
join:2004-08-06
united state

rrneteng

Member

Invasion of privacy

I am still waiting for the lawsuits. When the request goes out to have the javascript injected then the browser automatically fills in the http referer header. This means the advertising company now knows the url of the website they injected the javascript into. I.E. they have your browsing history, what sites you visited. Not only that but by design they are overlaying or injecting their javascript directly into the content of the page your visiting. Technically they have full control over the content of that site. I.E. they could easily have ajax check the page every few seconds or so and report all forms filled out etc... While I hope no one is currently stooping to that depth, it will not take long before some suit has a great idea on how to give the users a better experience by automatically capturing the information they type into fields on pages, email addresses, friends email addresses, phone numbers etc...

Talk about targeting advertising. Creepy...
cooldude9919
join:2000-05-29

cooldude9919

Member

Hotel Wifi

I work in IT in the hospitality industry for a privately/family owned hotel chain and i can offer some comparison on how our network is setup. Our goal is to be as seamless as possible in providing service. We install/service/support our hotel internet service all in house, the only thing we have done is obviously the bandwidth from our ISP but it is just a plain dumb pipe. Gladly with the way we do things the issue in the topic would never happen to us.

Internet is free

Currently we have no splash page or login. (though at some point this may have to change due to legal reasons)

no per user cap or throughput limit (can be a good and bad thing, but we have the ability to throttle abusive users)

hand out public ip (usually have a /26, /25, or /24 depending on the size of the hotel, if that gets exhausted we hand out private and do NAT, but it is a secondary pool)

Use Cisco routers/switches

Have 1 WAN connection only but try to make it as fat as possible. Trying to do load balance stuff with Cisco gear doesnt really work, plus add in trying to avoid NAT and it isnt easily doable.

Have metro-e in around ~60% of our locations, some up to 20mbit/20mbit in locations with ~130 rooms or less.

It is always a battle to justify the increased cost of circuit upgrades when our internet is free so we get no direct revenue from it but i can usually make a pretty good case if we have enough congestion.

Metro-e/fiber pricing has came down a lot in the last 5 years making it much more affordable, but even at that we may be spending ~$800-$1000 per month for a 20mb/20mb fiber connection in a good area. Anything involving the LEC (ATT/Verizon/Centruylink) would be a good amount higher.