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Will Regulators Repeat Fairpoint Mistakes With Frontier?
Ohio state consumer advocate raises questions that will be summarily ignored...

With the problems that have plagued Verizon customers in New England, all eyes turn to the regulators who'll rule on Verizon's latest plan to offload of a huge swath of rural customers to Frontier Communications. The $8.5 billion deal immediately infuses Frontier, which has 2.3 million customers, with 4.8 million new residential and small-business phone lines and 1 million broadband connections. 11,000 Verizon employees will be transferred.

We've already explored how some customers in South Carolina are stuck in broadband no-man's land until the deal goes down (and perhaps even after). Now Ohio has temporarily suspended their approval of the Verizon/Frontier deal after the Ohio state's utilities consumer advocate started wondering if Frontier can handle the acquisition:

quote:
The proposal calls for Verizon's Ohio operations, with about 435,000 residential customers in 77 counties, to be transferred to Frontier, which serves 480 residential customers in a small portion of Williams County. The state's utilities consumer advocate has raised questions about Frontier's ability to make needed improvements to Verizon's service quality.
Of course the questions raised by the state consumer protection expert are the same questions that were raised before regulators gleefully approved Verizon's offloading of New England to Fairpoint. Going from 480 customers to half a million is certainly no joke, and it's the kind of growth that's currently eating Fairpoint alive. For their part, Verizon insists the Ohio delay is routine. Frontier insists they can handle the load, though that's of course precisely what Fairpoint said before their new customers entered customer support purgatory.

Again, the winner has consistently been Verizon in these deals. Verizon lawyers use a sophisticated financial maneuver known as a Reverse Morris Trust to dump a significant amount of debt on smaller telcos, while grabbing millions in tax writeoffs, and purging themselves of pesky rural customers they had absolutely no interest in upgrading. The often already struggling telcos who acquire the booted customers then spend millions on integration and debt management, and have little to nothing left for next-generation upgrades.
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S_engineer
Premium Member
join:2007-05-16
Chicago, IL

2 edits

S_engineer

Premium Member

Not enought profit..... screw them.

Frontier must use the same glasses that Verizon uses, because if verizon sees a lack of profit then why doesn't frontier see this same deficiency.

Also...if I'm reading this correctly, once the suspension lifts, doesn't Frontier take possesion anyway?
Read 2nd paragraph...at the end. So by my reading, the suspension acts as a rubber stamp.

»www.puco.ohio.gov/PUCO/M ··· ?id=9472

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

battleop

Member

More skewed stats....

"The proposal calls for Verizon's Ohio operations, with about 435,000 residential customers in 77 counties, to be transferred to Frontier, which serves 480 residential customers in a small portion of Williams County"

So according to the tool that wrote the story Frontier is just a tiny company that only servers 480 residential customers. I found a fact sheet online that states they have over 2.3 Million lines. A half a million lines is still a big chunk to take over but the storyteller could at least tell the whole story.

I don't really care about Frontier or Verizon as I am not a customer of either company nor do I live or work in their service areas (Except for VZW).
caco
Premium Member
join:2005-03-10
Whittier, AK

caco

Premium Member

Re: More skewed stats....

"480 residential customers in a small portion of Williams County."

Try reading it again.

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

battleop

Member

Re: More skewed stats....

Yep, That's exactly the way I read it. The story is written to make them sound as small as possible.

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

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1 recommendation

Karl Bode

News Guy

Re: More skewed stats....

I think you're being defensive for whatever reason, misreading the article -- or something. It clearly highlights that this is just Ohio. That's a massive jump, from 480 users in part of one county to nearly half-a-million in close to 77 counties. That's just one state. Whether Frontier can handle that kind of growth is a legitimate question. From what I've seen, they can barely handle delivering more than 3Mbps worth of connectivity to the customers they do have.

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

1 recommendation

battleop

Member

Re: More skewed stats....

To the average Joe Blow it sounds like some small company with only 480 customers is getting ready to jump to almost 500,000 customers. There is no doubt that they suck, but the story is misleading to the uneducated cowsumer.

I made my statement to point out how the numbers were skewed not to point out their ability or inability to take over the customers.

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

1 edit

1 recommendation

Karl Bode

News Guy

Re: More skewed stats....

There is no doubt that they suck, but the story is misleading to the uneducated cowsumer.
If the "uneducated cowsumer" can't read the headline highlighting the story's from Ohio, the repeated references within the story to the fact this is just concerning "Verizon's operations in Ohio," then I don't know what we can do for them. The article should have probably stated Fairpoint's total numbers, but I think you confuse omission with intentional maliciousness. I've added the transfer totals (including employees) to the first paragraph of our breakdown in order to protect readers from the supposed viciousness of the Columbus Dispatch.

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

battleop

Member

Re: More skewed stats....

I am not referring to anything you wrote, as most people here would understand that they are a multi-state company. I would consider the over whelming majority of BBR to be above average and would understand that they have more than 480 customers.

To the Average Joe Shmuck it sounds like some tiny company is going to take over their phone service and it that their phone service will probably get cut off.
battleop

battleop to Karl Bode

Member

to Karl Bode
"I think you confuse omission with intentional maliciousnes"

I don't think there is anything intentional, it's a case of another reporter who does not understand anything about what they are reporting on. Similar to a sports reporter trying to report on a medical story.

Smith6612
MVM
join:2008-02-01
North Tonawanda, NY
·Charter
Ubee EU2251
Ubiquiti UAP-IW-HD
Ubiquiti UniFi AP-AC-HD

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Smith6612 to Karl Bode

MVM

to Karl Bode
Per the barely being able to take 3Mbps, might I add that out in Rochester NY, and in a few places around the US Frontier has people running off of 6Mbps and 10Mbps speeds that hold reliably. I'm almost positive that Frontier isn't having issues holding the higher speeds since they've been doing a bunch of upgrades to their networks, and that story was caused by someone looking to save some money, thus getting their speed turned down. Frontier actually used to offer 6Mbps in my area to Residents (which they removed as a choice a year ago), but since they had run out of bandwidth several months ago and brought more in, they only offer 6Mbps to businesses right now in my area. A Frontier tech at the CO though did tip me off that they are installing some new equipment/DSLAMS at the CO, and thanks to the huge amount of bandwidth the CO now has after boosting their fiber line, they may be setting up my area for 6+Mbps very soon to residents. The same tech also stated that he'd allow me to try out my line at the fastest sync rate it can hold (looking to be at roughly 6Mbps, higher with ADSL2+) once they finish upgrading things in my area to help them test things out rather than just allowing people to get it and sitting back to see what happens. The tech knows that I'm one of the heaviest users that Frontier has in the area who knows a lot about these things, so he sees it as a good thing to set me higher and hammer the connection.
older dog
Premium Member
join:2005-06-09

1 edit

older dog to Karl Bode

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to Karl Bode
Frontier only offers those speeds in a few select areas. Most areas see the max speed capped at 3/383

Edit: I have had RR now for almost a year and prior to that I had Frontier DSL at the same location.
I am about 1200 feet wire length from the CO and the RR node is across the street.

Frontier was generally stable but has increasingly had region wide outages for days, when asked for credit I was ignored.

Several years back Frontier seemed more willing to spend money on improvements. Now they seem more inclined to expand while ignoring the current infrastructure.

RR has not been flawless but almost all my problems have been caused by one tech who when he repairs one line he messes up the neighbors and the reverse is also true.

Bottom line on downloads or speed tests I get 3 times the speed on RR at half the cost.

The major problem with Frontier is that even where they have competition they charge far higher prices with far less service for your money.

Frontier pricing for my region. This is for digital phone and 3/ 383 internet.

High-Speed Internet and Digital Phone Unlimited
One-bill convenience lets you combine Internet, Local and Long Distance Services on a single bill -- or you can pay electronically with our Online Bill Payment.
Prices Starting At $94.99

spewak
R.I.P Dadkins
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Elk Grove, CA
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spewak

Premium Member

Re: More skewed stats....

said by older dog:

Frontier pricing for my region. This is for digital phone and 3/ 383 internet.

High-Speed Internet and Digital Phone Unlimited
One-bill convenience lets you combine Internet, Local and Long Distance Services on a single bill -- or you can pay electronically with our Online Bill Payment.
Prices Starting At $94.99
Just to compare:
My Fiber to the home 25/25 (synchronous) and Unlimited California (Digital Phone) calling plan=$99.00 and some change.

I agree with your assessment of Frontier. Wholeheartedly!
caco
Premium Member
join:2005-03-10
Whittier, AK

caco to battleop

Premium Member

to battleop
I think we are looking at different articles.

It looks to me that Frontier currently only has 480 subs in that area of Ohio. If they take over area from VZ their sub count would jump to 435k subs. That is 90,000% percent increase in subs not to mention the mountain of debt that come with that purchase.

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

battleop

Member

Re: More skewed stats....

Is there some wall around the state of Ohio that would not allow them to draw from resources that are out side of the state?
caco
Premium Member
join:2005-03-10
Whittier, AK

caco

Premium Member

Re: More skewed stats....

The wall is the giantic debt that comes with the acquisition of those subs. Yes they are getting paying customers but from what has been the track record with these deals the benefit goes to seller and not buyer or customers who are sold.

These areas are between a rock and a hardplace. Either the stay with VZ and get forgotten or the get purchased by a smaller carrier and have a chance of being screwed by bad service and no upgrades.

Good luck to Frontier refinanacing that debt in the future.

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

battleop

Member

Re: More skewed stats....

"chance of being screwed by bad service and no upgrades."

If Verizon is trying to dump them they are probably already there.

cdru
Go Colts
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join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN

cdru to battleop

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to battleop
said by battleop:

Is there some wall around the state of Ohio that would not allow them to draw from resources that are out side of the state?
Not walls, but I believe telcos usually operate as distinct business entities within a state for regulatory reasons. Someone feel free to correct me. What the public sees is the parent company. There wouldn't be anything to say that resources from the parent company, but the amount of regulatory and administrative overhead going from a few hundred customers to a few hundred thousands customers is quite a jump, more then just what simply drawing in their existing resources may be able to give them.

Personally I think all states involved should do as Ohio is doing. Maybe not necessarily suspend the approval, but definitely investigate what Frontier can handle, what their plan is for transitioning and future management too.

OSUGoose
join:2007-12-27
Columbus, OH
Apple AirPort Extreme (2013)

OSUGoose to battleop

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to battleop
No, in terms of Ohio regulators eyes, they only footprint here they have is that 480 in williams co. why would we care they have 2.3 mil total subs elsewhere. In ohio they would be growing by 1000% in size. Thus the reason why its being looked at carefully.
hottboiinnc4
ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

hottboiinnc4

Member

Re: More skewed stats....

The OCC won't get shit. They'll be paid off just like all the other companies do to them. They're just like the PUC here.

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

1 edit

1 recommendation

FFH5 to battleop

Premium Member

to battleop
Frontier would go from 2.3 million lines to 4.8 million phone lines and 1 million broadband connections. »money.aol.com/article/ve ··· l/479784

Certainly a big increase. But nothing like the distortion in the story of going from 480 to 435,000 in 1 state.

StevenB
Premium Member
join:2000-10-27
New York, NY
·Charter

StevenB

Premium Member

Re: More skewed stats....

said by FFH5:

Frontier would go from 2.3 million lines to 4.8 million phone lines and 1 million broadband connections. »money.aol.com/article/ve ··· l/479784

Certainly a big increase. But nothing like the distortion in the story of going from 480 to 435,000 in 1 state.
Where is the distortion in the news piece? Do you and others just skim by a few lines, and not read the entire the news piece. He pointed out 1 county in ohio having only 480 customers, to getting nearly 500k subs, close to 77 counties.

my son told me a great line. /facepalm lol

pugetsounder
@myvzw.com

pugetsounder

Anon

Re: More skewed stats....

imho it is a distortion.

i work in washington state, where frontier has ZERO subscribers.

i don't know how many lines we have (between copper, fios, and fios tv), but i do know washington has 6.5 million people and we carry a SIGNIFICANT percentage of the state.

prior to verizon, GTE Northwest headquartered in Everett, WA was a nearly autonomous operation that ran all of WA, Oregon, Idaho, and northern California.

Since verizon, alot of operations have been gutted/phased out to groups in southern california, but we still have a big arsed building with an FSC, sales groups and still a whole of administration.

i don't know the extent of the verizon operations in ohio, but the article and the DISTORTION of the jump from 480 to 1/2 million subs makes it sound like all the current vz operations will pack up and leave.

even in oregon frontier only has one CO to my knowledge in Myrtle Creek (try and find it on a map).

i've heard verizon is replicating all of the vz systems from billing(don't laugh) to provisioning and all of the divested areas will run of the systems while they are cut away become independent. then frontier will merge them into their systems over time.

i'm not an apologist for frontier or verizon. but i'm cautiously optimistic that this will work out alot better than fairpoint or hawaiian telecom.
hottboiinnc4
ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

hottboiinnc4

Member

Re: More skewed stats....

Ohio HAD GTE's offices here. They had a HUGE office with all the Excs and such and then a call center down the road a ways. VZ took over, the HQ was phased out, and what was left of the employees were moved to the call center in the basement, sales was pretty much in another state, Tech support in the Ohio office was next to nothing, Repair field tech's were worthless.

Ohio was all system run and only needed human input for orders, after VZ that went away and everything now takes a human that is lucky if they know what they're doing.

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

4 edits

Karl Bode to FFH5

News Guy

to FFH5
Frontier would go from 2.3 million lines to 4.8 million phone lines and 1 million broadband connections.
Actually, it's taking 2.3 million lines and adding 4.8 million more lines and 1 million broadband connections, not totaling 4.8 million phone lines.

Huge, huge growth for a fairly small operator.

"With more than 7 million access lines in 27 states, we will be the largest provider of voice, broadband and video services focused on rural to smaller city markets in the United States," the CEO announced back when the deal dropped.

S_engineer
Premium Member
join:2007-05-16
Chicago, IL

S_engineer

Premium Member

Re: More skewed stats....

hey karl, hit the link I posted on top, and see If I'm right about Frontier taking over regardless of this suspension.

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

1 edit

Karl Bode

News Guy

Re: More skewed stats....

I think you're right. I'll add that to the writeup...thank you....

Going to fling the wording at a municipal attorney I know to confirm.....

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

1 edit

FFH5 to S_engineer

Premium Member

to S_engineer
said by S_engineer:

hey karl, hit the link I posted on top, and see If I'm right about Frontier taking over regardless of this suspension.
That isn't the way I read that info. The suspension stops the automatic 30 day clock. And the 30 day clock won't resume UNTIL the suspension is lifted. The suspension WAS an order issued before the 30 day clock expired.

If the commission had not issued the suspension(or a denial), then the merger would have been approved automatically on June 29.

S_engineer
Premium Member
join:2007-05-16
Chicago, IL

S_engineer

Premium Member

Re: More skewed stats....

upon rereading...you may be right tk
nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD

nasadude

Member

Will Regulators Repeat Fairpoint Mistake With Frontier?

yes.

this has been another episode of simple answers to difficult questions.
n2ubp
join:2007-07-13
Middletown, NY

n2ubp

Member

Frontier is old school and does not have a clue

My personal opinion...

Frontier management will probably try to lower costs by consolidating and laying off blue collar workers, which is what they do best. Perhaps add to profit by nickel and dime-ing the former Verizon subs to death, which will force them to VOIP and cable, which continues Frontiers spiral downward. Unless you live in Rochester, NY I expect no upgrades or speed increases for the next 10 - 15 years. They don't get it, the mindset is old school telco combined with a mission to make the execs richer.

morbo
Complete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000

morbo

Member

Re: Frontier is old school and does not have a clue

1. Layoffs resulting in poorer service
2. Price increases
3. Disaster for customers
4. VZ PROFIT!!!

spewak
R.I.P Dadkins
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Elk Grove, CA
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spewak

Premium Member

Re: Frontier is old school and does not have a clue

said by morbo:

1. Layoffs resulting in poorer service
2. Price increases
3. Disaster for customers
4. VZ PROFIT!!!
I just wonder what the motivation for Frontier is. They can barely handle the subs in their markets now. They are a very weak, addle-minded company whose sole intention is to milk the copper cow until it can be milked nether more. Frontier sucks A--!
Period!

morbo
Complete Your Transaction
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morbo

Member

Re: Frontier is old school and does not have a clue

I believe it is to try, fail, and then emerge from bankruptcy with much lower debt so they can "try it again" without the burden of having to pay off their bills.

OSUGoose
join:2007-12-27
Columbus, OH

OSUGoose

Member

Hey

why not instead of frontier hand them over to AT&T. AT&T is allready in some rual areas here in Ohio, and seems to have no problems serving them. And alot of the areas that are VZ but up to AT&T areas, so the links are there allready.

••••

mikedz4
join:2003-04-14
Weirton, WV

mikedz4

Member

add west virginia to the list that will question the takeove

I talked to a representative from the psc in west virginia this week and they told me they plan to examine the transfer from verizon to frontier with a "fine-tooth comb". If they approve the merger it will come with conditions like how long until they upgrade the network to offer tv service and fios like internet in the state, and it will regulate rates (local and long distance).

bUU
join:2007-05-10
Kissimmee, FL

bUU

Member

Make Up Your Mind!

First regulators get on Comcast's back about having too many subscribers. Now you want them to get on Frontier's back for having too few subscribers? MAKE UP YOUR MIND!

What it sounds like to me is that people want to impose their own consumerist view of the world on the marketplace, without any concern about the rights of investors. In our society, investors are not required to invest their money the specific way consumerists want. When business is subjugated by consumerists, that's called socialism.

Pale_Rider
join:2004-10-18
South Ozone Park, NY

Pale_Rider

Member

Re: Make Up Your Mind!

There has to be a balance though Bick.

Protecting the shareholder is indeed the responsibility of the company management, but if customer service and the product (Lack of infrastructure investment) suffer to protect the shareholder,does that not create a self destructive cycle?

Based on everything I've read about Frontier, they are a horror show and in most areas they are the only game in town, they basically do as they please.

Lousy product and lousy service do not breed customer loyalty and as soon as another option presents itself, people flee in droves,which is ultimately detrimental to the shareholder.

bUU
join:2007-05-10
Kissimmee, FL

bUU

Member

Re: Make Up Your Mind!

So what you're saying is that businesses should focus on consumer needs to the extent that it contributes to long-term shareholder value -- that's the balance that the company strikes.

Mass-market customers generally are incapable of exhibiting loyalty. They're driven by price, not loyalty. Mass-market consumers generally "flee" when other providers offer lower prices, not higher quality.

brentos
join:2007-07-19
Monroe, NY

brentos

Member

Frontier Acquisition

I fear for these new Frontier users. I have the option of Cablevision's Optimum Online or Frontier. Frontier is such a joke.